Karate blackbelts in MMA

Hotora86 said:
huh? why? what happened?
Click to expand...
The new president has ruined the league for actual karate fans.
At least half the fighters on the regular roster have no real karate background now, they spend way too much time pushing crypto, and begun hosting crypto influencer fights.

The president did an AMA on Reddit, and responded to any criticism like a total douche nozzle.

 
JohnPJones said:
The new president has ruined the league for actual karate fans.
At least half the fighters on the regular roster have no real karate background now, they spend way too much time pushing crypto, and begun hosting crypto influencer fights.

The president did an AMA on Reddit, and responded to any criticism like a total douche nozzle.

Click to expand...

[omg1]
 
Black belt meaning 'competency' means that a lot of MMA fighters probably have one from when they were young but this doesn't reflect on their style as an adult fighter. The BB may also have been in a semi-contact style (though tbf point sparring styles have been used effectively before)

I would personally love to see a karate/tkd offshoot that uses something like the BJJ belt system:
-white (beginner)
-blue (competent)
-purple (intermediate)
-brown (advanced)
-black (mastery)

i.e. black is legitimately hard to get and signifies mastery (with some degree of gatekeeping culture to help expose fake BBs, similar to BJJ).

From what I saw in (TAGB) TKD, the rank equivalent to BJJ (in good dojangs) was something like:
- White (BJJ) = All colour belts (TKD)
- Blue (BJJ) = 1 Dan Black Belt (TKD)
- Purple (BJJ) = 2 Dan Black Belt (TKD)
- Brown (BJJ) = 3 Dan Black Belt (TKD)
- Black (BJJ) = 4 Dan Black Belt (TKD)

I think this cheapens the idea of a black belt a lot. People complain about 12yos getting it but it makes more sense when you realise it's the 'basic competency' status.

Could even simplify it a bit more, maybe just 4 belts or something. I never really understood the function of having like 6-7 belts before black in TKD, given that black just means you've got the basics down. Similarly, why bother having higher Dan grades when you can just make Black the mastery rank (rather than having lofty 6/7 Dan ranks only attained by old guys who work for the organisation, i.e. meaningless in terms of fighting capability).

I think Kudo also implements something where you can rank up by winning competitions (which makes some sense for striking imo)

Obviously ranks can degrade over time as the style becomes more sportified or geared towards kids, but I feel like setting a clear bar for mastery (and enforcing it) would help the gi striking styles a bit, and make their black belts something worthwhile again
 
Mick Dojang said:
Black belt meaning 'competency' means that a lot of MMA fighters probably have one from when they were young but this doesn't reflect on their style as an adult fighter. The BB may also have been in a semi-contact style (though tbf point sparring styles have been used effectively before)

I would personally love to see a karate/tkd offshoot that uses something like the BJJ belt system:
-white (beginner)
-blue (competent)
-purple (intermediate)
-brown (advanced)
-black (mastery)

i.e. black is legitimately hard to get and signifies mastery (with some degree of gatekeeping culture to help expose fake BBs, similar to BJJ).

From what I saw in (TAGB) TKD, the rank equivalent to BJJ (in good dojangs) was something like:
- White (BJJ) = All colour belts (TKD)
- Blue (BJJ) = 1 Dan Black Belt (TKD)
- Purple (BJJ) = 2 Dan Black Belt (TKD)
- Brown (BJJ) = 3 Dan Black Belt (TKD)
- Black (BJJ) = 4 Dan Black Belt (TKD)

I think this cheapens the idea of a black belt a lot. People complain about 12yos getting it but it makes more sense when you realise it's the 'basic competency' status.

Could even simplify it a bit more, maybe just 4 belts or something. I never really understood the function of having like 6-7 belts before black in TKD, given that black just means you've got the basics down. Similarly, why bother having higher Dan grades when you can just make Black the mastery rank (rather than having lofty 6/7 Dan ranks only attained by old guys who work for the organisation, i.e. meaningless in terms of fighting capability).

I think Kudo also implements something where you can rank up by winning competitions (which makes some sense for striking imo)

Obviously ranks can degrade over time as the style becomes more sportified or geared towards kids, but I feel like setting a clear bar for mastery (and enforcing it) would help the gi striking styles a bit, and make their black belts something worthwhile again
Click to expand...
Karate belt rankings have been adopted from Judo.

Rank in judo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Kano's original system was:
blue
white
brown
black

There were still higher Dan ranks within black though.
It all depends on the martial art and organization, as described in the Wiki.

en.wikipedia.org

Dan (rank) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

In modern times, a dan-ranked practitioner of a style is usually recognized as a martial artist who has surpassed the kyū, or basic, ranks. They may also become a licensed instructor in their art. In many styles, however, achieving a dan rank means that, while one is no longer considered a beginner, one is not yet necessarily an expert. Rather, it indicates a high degree of competence across a reasonable range of techniques.
 
Hotora86 said:
Karate belt rankings have been adopted from Judo.

Rank in judo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Kano's original system was:
blue
white
brown
black

There were still higher Dan ranks within black though.
It all depends on the martial art and organization, as described in the Wiki.

en.wikipedia.org

Dan (rank) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

In modern times, a dan-ranked practitioner of a style is usually recognized as a martial artist who has surpassed the kyū, or basic, ranks. They may also become a licensed instructor in their art. In many styles, however, achieving a dan rank means that, while one is no longer considered a beginner, one is not yet necessarily an expert. Rather, it indicates a high degree of competence across a reasonable range of techniques.
Click to expand...

Whatever it was originally, in the present day I feel that the BJJ system corresponds more directly to different levels of fighting ability and maintains Black as a prestigious level of achievement instead of the threshold between beginner and practitioner.

I'd be interested to see a karate system implementing it in the same way
 
Mick Dojang said:
Whatever it was originally, in the present day I feel that the BJJ system corresponds more directly to different levels of fighting ability and maintains Black as a prestigious level of achievement instead of the threshold between beginner and practitioner.

I'd be interested to see a karate system implementing it in the same way
Click to expand...
To be fair, BJJ is the minority here. Most other martial arts have colored belts for juniors with black meaning competency as stated above, while mastery is reached at 3 or 4 Dan.

This may be because BJJ has been so competitive and fight-oriented while Judo, Karate etc have been designed to be "way of life" arts since the 50s so the slow and steady progress for a lifetime is what arguably works well with the multitude of ranks. Just a theory I had heard.

If You want a Japanese striking/hybrid art with Karate roots and a strong focus on fighting and less colored belts then KUDO is up your alley.

Belt Promotion | Kudo United Kingdom

www.ukkudofederation.com www.ukkudofederation.com
 
Shidokan too although we have quite a few colored belts but nothing like the TKD I took prior. At the TKD school they also gave out stripes for each belt so you had 2 rankings within each color belt. The TKD school charged a testing fee so that is probably the reason for so many rankings. I think I paid $500 for a black belt test. Guess the school fits the Takemydough pronuciation. Was a good school though, instructor taught boxing and some grappling plus some members did fight in kickboxing and full contact karate matches besides TKD touch. Went out of buisiness when he lost about a half dozen kids due to moving addresses.
 
Great interview with the most famous Karate guy in MMA.


Loved how Page describes their fight and how he reacted to Randy's shot at Lyoto! :D
Both guys respectful and nice to each other.
As one should be.
 
Hotora86 said:
Great interview with the most famous Karate guy in MMA.


Loved how Page describes their fight and how he reacted to Randy's shot at Lyoto! :D
Both guys respectful and nice to each other.
As one should be.
Click to expand...

Lyoto is a great guy.
 
Hotora86 said:
That's still quite many but I think you are missing a few... like the Machida brothers perhaps? ;)

Have you ever seen Katsunori Kikuno fight? Even his stance is straight from the Sochin kata.



I would even argue that practically all Japanese fighters on the list "actively use" Karate principles since the art is taken much more seriously in Japan than in the US.
Click to expand...

Do you know anything about this karateka? Was he good at kumite?
 
JohnPJones said:
The new president has ruined the league for actual karate fans.
At least half the fighters on the regular roster have no real karate background now, they spend way too much time pushing crypto, and begun hosting crypto influencer fights.

The president did an AMA on Reddit, and responded to any criticism like a total douche nozzle.

Click to expand...

But if a karate guy cant beat a TKD guy or a boxer then that cheapens the art of karate. I have a black belt in both TKD and Karate. I personally believe Karate is the best striking style and IMO other styles SHOULD be allowed to compete and prove they can hang with a karateka. It is the karate mans job to prove to the other styles that karate is the best style if he cant do that then it simply proves what everybody already knows anyways that fighting is one thing not any particular style. That is more intriguing anyways to have the current best TKD guy or the best Kickboxer etc to go up against the best karate man and prove the style.
 
ROcknrollracing said:
But if a karate guy cant beat a TKD guy or a boxer then that cheapens the art of karate. I have a black belt in both TKD and Karate. I personally believe Karate is the best striking style and IMO other styles SHOULD be allowed to compete and prove they can hang with a karateka. It is the karate mans job to prove to the other styles that karate is the best style if he cant do that then it simply proves what everybody already knows anyways that fighting is one thing not any particular style. That is more intriguing anyways to have the current best TKD guy or the best Kickboxer etc to go up against the best karate man and prove the style.
Click to expand...
Which style of Karate do you have a black belt in?
 
ROcknrollracing said:
But if a karate guy cant beat a TKD guy or a boxer then that cheapens the art of karate. I have a black belt in both TKD and Karate. I personally believe Karate is the best striking style and IMO other styles SHOULD be allowed to compete and prove they can hang with a karateka. It is the karate mans job to prove to the other styles that karate is the best style if he cant do that then it simply proves what everybody already knows anyways that fighting is one thing not any particular style. That is more intriguing anyways to have the current best TKD guy or the best Kickboxer etc to go up against the best karate man and prove the style.
Click to expand...
Well, it's already been done in K-1 and MMA.

Kyokushin and its variants have been extremely successful in K-1 so I don't think there's anything left to prove there.

In MMA there have been multiple champions with Karate backgrounds though of course nobody was using only Karate. Lyoto Machida (a very "pure Karate" looking fighter) winning the UFC LHW belt at a time when LHW was the coolest division pretty much put Karate back on the map, though we had Miletich, Rutten, Mezger, GSP, Chuck etc all coming from Karate backgrounds before that.

I think that the stigma is mostly gone and even top MMA fighters include Karate in their training sometimes to improve their game.

eg https://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Belforts-Secret-Skill-Karate-19632

eg https://www.essentiallysports.com/u...pic-wrestler-have-a-black-belt-in-karate-bjj/

"To improve his striking, the Olympic gold medallist started training in Shotokan Karate. And the results were apparent from his next performances. The Mexican-American had much better footwork in his subsequent fights, and was able to set traps for his opponents using it. In addition, he displayed a much better understanding of range, using it to get in and out, instead of simply exploding forward and then retreating, as he had done earlier."
 
Intermission said:
Do you know anything about this karateka? Was he good at kumite?
Click to expand...

Takashi Tokuhisa, the Slovenian karate shihan, was born on October 29, 1947 in Yahata, on the Japanese island of Kyushu. He started practicing karate in 1962 and, according to the rules of the time, reached the master black belt after just one year of training. He also proved to be an excellent competitor in his youth. In 1969, he participated in the National Championship of Japan, in which he defeated the absolute favorite master in the kumite final. He studied and graduated in economics at the University of Tokyo and, in 1970, went to Europe, first to Paris, where he joined the group of master Taiji Kase, who became his teacher for life.
 
Hotora86 said:
Well, it's already been done in K-1 and MMA.

Kyokushin and its variants have been extremely successful in K-1 so I don't think there's anything left to prove there.

In MMA there have been multiple champions with Karate backgrounds though of course nobody was using only Karate. Lyoto Machida (a very "pure Karate" looking fighter) winning the UFC LHW belt at a time when LHW was the coolest division pretty much put Karate back on the map, though we had Miletich, Rutten, Mezger, GSP, Chuck etc all coming from Karate backgrounds before that.

I think that the stigma is mostly gone and even top MMA fighters include Karate in their training sometimes to improve their game.

eg https://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Belforts-Secret-Skill-Karate-19632

eg https://www.essentiallysports.com/u...pic-wrestler-have-a-black-belt-in-karate-bjj/

"To improve his striking, the Olympic gold medallist started training in Shotokan Karate. And the results were apparent from his next performances. The Mexican-American had much better footwork in his subsequent fights, and was able to set traps for his opponents using it. In addition, he displayed a much better understanding of range, using it to get in and out, instead of simply exploding forward and then retreating, as he had done earlier."
Click to expand...
But Why would you just ban everyone from competing that uses a slightly different style from karate from competing? It makes no sense.
 
ROcknrollracing said:
But if a karate guy cant beat a TKD guy or a boxer then that cheapens the art of karate. I have a black belt in both TKD and Karate. I personally believe Karate is the best striking style and IMO other styles SHOULD be allowed to compete and prove they can hang with a karateka. It is the karate mans job to prove to the other styles that karate is the best style if he cant do that then it simply proves what everybody already knows anyways that fighting is one thing not any particular style. That is more intriguing anyways to have the current best TKD guy or the best Kickboxer etc to go up against the best karate man and prove the style.
Click to expand...
ROcknrollracing said:
shotokon
Click to expand...

I'm from Shotokan originally too, and I can definitely say that regardless of how hard you train in Shotokan and how legit your instruction is, it's a style with massive flaws for hand to hand combat without some cross training. Things like head defence, low kicks, punch combos, clinch work, elbows, etc don't get much focus at all.
 
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