Karate blackbelts in MMA

Your earlier comment was:

A lot of karatekas are hobbyists with office jobs who don't want to risk turning up to work with a damaged face so full contact with head punches isn't their thing.

I'm saying the space helmets are an obvious solution to this problem. You're right that they don't prevent brain damage, but they do prevent cuts, black eyes, broken jaws, broken noses, cracked orbitals, etc. It would be a way to introduce face punching in a manner that would alleviate the concerns for people who don't want to deal with all of the above.

I am assuming here that a lot of KK fighters are interested in seeing a competition format that allows punches to the head, but aren't interested in having their face rearranged.

There are plenty of competition formats with head punches out there be it from Karate organisations or Kickboxing, but the majority or Kyokushin Karatekas are happy with Knockdown and don't necessarily look for something else. Only on forums like Sherdog people complain that Kyokushin "doesn't do face punches". For Kyokushin Karatekas who want to fight with head punches there is Kickboxing, Semi-contact stuff like clicker, or MMA.

On top of the "space helmets" not preventing brain trauma, it also gives the fighter a false sense of security and kind of remove the fear of walking into punches - that's not really a good thing to fight like a brawler not being afraid of headshots because you have that helmet to protect you, be it for your brain or for the risk of developing bad habits.

I have to agree, especially when you take into account that while knockdown does not allow face punching, it DOES allow face KICKING. And this it not something you wanna risk happening to you when you have a day job.

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I may be wrong but I think the space helmet would protect from at least some of the impact.

In Knockdown tournaments, kicks rarely damage the face as they mostly land to the side or top of the head, apart from some front kicks to the face which are pretty rare. Even knees tend to land under the jaw instead of the face as clinching and grabbing the head isn't allowed. I mean there are plenty of Knockdown fighters who don't even wear a mouth guard in competition (that's crazy to me though, even in point-scoring Shotokan I used to wear a mouth guard).

As @shadow_priest_x wrote, The Kudo type helmets do protect from cuts, bruises and broken face bones, however they don't really reduce the impact or amount of brain trauma and I really don't think they're needed for Knockdown rules at all. If you want to wear those and have head punches allowed you might as well do Kudo.

I have an acquaintance who ended up in the hospital after getting hit in a Shotokan tournament by a guy who didn't fully control his punch. His face was all fucked up and the doctors said if the broken bones had moved around differently under his skin then it potentially could've endangered his life. That happened in a SHOTOKAN tournament of all things. Just think about the possible results in a bout where someone is actually trying to punch you as hard as they can.

The fucked up thing is that was actually the second time he got badly hurt in a karate tournament, both times for the same reason, guys just not throwing with control. Just shows you what a jack hammer to the face can actually do to you.

There is nothing worse than getting hit full force to the face while it's against the rules and therefore you're not expecting it, especially with those thin point-scoring gloves. I've also seen plenty of serious face/head injuries in Shotokan point scoring tournaments because of some idiots who would not control the power behind their strikes, but also sometimes it happens that the fighter getting injured sort of "ran into" the strike.

At least when you fight in a full contact format there's no surprise that the other fighter is trying to hit you full force in the face, and you'll most likely have prepared for that with appropriate training to defend against head strikes with blocking and dodging.

Existence of Shotokan no-control morons confirmed.

Edited for you.
 
I must confess, I have no fucking clue what the point of those stupid space helmets are.
 
I must confess, I have no fucking clue what the point of those stupid space helmets are.

Well as has been mentioned, I'm pretty sure it's to allow headshots while avoiding facial injury and deformity.

You could argue that they create the bad habit of giving fighters a false sense of security, which could perhaps lead to a guy being more willing to take a headshot in a self-defense situation. But it at least gets guys used to seeing full-force blows coming at their face as well as the feeling of getting their brain rattled, so if that self-defense situation does arrive they won't freak out the first time they get hit.

It seems that would create FEWER bad habits than something like Kyokushin where guys get used to just squaring up with their opponent from two feet away and landing body bombs and not even worrying about the possibility of a head punch. And don't get me wrong, I think Kyokushin is cool, but I can just see a KK guy getting into a spat with a guy at a bar and then, out of habit, start throwing body punches while leaving himself totally open to a haymaker to the head.
 
Well as has been mentioned, I'm pretty sure it's to allow headshots while avoiding facial injury and deformity.

You could argue that they create the bad habit of giving fighters a false sense of security, which could perhaps lead to a guy being more willing to take a headshot in a self-defense situation. But it at least gets guys used to seeing full-force blows coming at their face as well as the feeling of getting their brain rattled, so if that self-defense situation does arrive they won't freak out the first time they get hit.

It seems that would create FEWER bad habits than something like Kyokushin where guys get used to just squaring up with their opponent from two feet away and landing body bombs and not even worrying about the possibility of a head punch. And don't get me wrong, I think Kyokushin is cool, but I can just see a KK guy getting into a spat with a guy at a bar and then, out of habit, start throwing body punches while leaving himself totally open to a haymaker to the head.

Don't get me wrong, I find kyokushin ridiculous in concept (no offense to the guys here that do it) - but I'm not sure I find that quite as hard as wearing a big ol' helmet that can get knocked backwards into your own neck vertebra - which is my main issue
 
Don't get me wrong, I find kyokushin ridiculous in concept (no offense to the guys here that do it) - but I'm not sure I find that quite as hard as wearing a big ol' helmet that can get knocked backwards into your own neck vertebra - which is my main issue

I dunno. I haven't worn the space helmets personally but I've always been curious about them.

If the opportunity arose, I'd try strapping one and doing a round of sparring one day to see how it felt.
 
I dunno. I haven't worn the space helmets personally but I've always been curious about them.

If the opportunity arose, I'd try strapping one and doing a round of sparring one day to see how it felt.

Amateur boxing recently ditched the headgear because studies showed that it made it more dangerous - something to do with it creating more whip round when you get punched
 
Amateur boxing recently ditched the headgear because studies showed that it made it more dangerous - something to do with it creating more whip round when you get punched
I don't think it does create more whip, creating more whip is just encouraged because basic straights and not as effective when hitting headgear.

The reasons that I have seen are:
  • Headgear makes it tougher to see, so boxers can’t dodge as well.
  • Headgear creates a false sense of safety and boxers take more risks.
  • It also makes the boxer’s head a bigger target.
Further reading:
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-boxers-arent-wearing-headgear-anymore/

A boxing coach opposed to getting rid of the headgear:
https://www.myboxingcoach.com/boxing-head-guards/
 
I don't think it does create more whip, creating more whip is just encouraged because basic straights and not as effective when hitting headgear.

The reasons that I have seen are:
  • Headgear makes it tougher to see, so boxers can’t dodge as well.
  • Headgear creates a false sense of safety and boxers take more risks.
  • It also makes the boxer’s head a bigger target.
Further reading:
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-boxers-arent-wearing-headgear-anymore/

A boxing coach opposed to getting rid of the headgear:
https://www.myboxingcoach.com/boxing-head-guards/

What I'm curious about is how it affects the gym culture. Does your boxing gym still have helmets on their guys? I sparred in a ring once, no helmet on anyone.
 
Taekwondo guys argue that it protects the fighter who is being knocked down, if he were to smash his head.to the floor.
 
And don't get me wrong, I think Kyokushin is cool, but I can just see a KK guy getting into a spat with a guy at a bar and then, out of habit, start throwing body punches while leaving himself totally open to a haymaker to the head.

Because a sport format doesn't allow head punches doesn't mean that you're unable to throw a punch to the head. The issue of that sport format is more about struggling a bit with how to deal with punches coming to your head with proper defense and dodging. On the upside though, Kyokushin stylists have conditioned hands and knuckles and are used to throw punches bare knuckle which is a massive plus in a non sport environment.

To be honest I have no worry about Kyokushin stylists throwing heavy punches to someone's head, and I'd give most of a them a good chance at handling an untrained opponent in a bar. Overall I would actually give a better chance to most Kyokushin fighters as opposed to most Shotokan Karatekas in non sport environments, just because of the full contact aspect and the more developed mental and physical toughness.

Don't get me wrong, I find kyokushin ridiculous in concept (no offense to the guys here that do it)

Why do you find Kyokushin ridiculous?
I think what you find ridiculous is the knockdown ruleset, not Kyokushin the martial art. The art of Kyokushin doesn't have any restrictions to head punches and has many techniques forbidden in sport contests such as arm locks, holds, throws, even groin shots etc. In that sense it's very complete and not restrictive. There are many Kyokushin Karatekas who don't compete in Knockdown and practice Kyokushin the martial art, just like you have Muay Boran practitioners who don't compete in the sport of Muay Thai.
 
I may be wrong but I think the space helmet would protect from at least some of the impact.

I can confirm the space helmet doesn't really protect you from the impact. All it does is spread the force of impact across the helmet - so you don't get cut or bruised. But you are still taking the impact to the head.

I've had instances of headaches/spacing out after some hard sparring sessions. I also know others that have complained of headaches/spacing out after harder sparring.



On top of the "space helmets" not preventing brain trauma, it also gives the fighter a false sense of security and kind of remove the fear of walking into punches - that's not really a good thing to fight like a brawler not being afraid of headshots because you have that helmet to protect you, be it for your brain or for the risk of developing bad habits.

I don't think it gives a fighter a false sense of security or removes the fear of walking into punches. At least I'm not rushing into shots without fear because of the helmet - and I don't know anyone in the dojo that does that.

You can still feel that smack against your head - it's the equivalent of being punched without an helmet imho - it's just the pain of eating a punch is a bit duller because it's spread over the helmet by design.

What makes Kudo brawling like - is the competition rule set - not the art itself. The helmet also gives the tendency for people to spar much harder than they should because of the plexi-glass on the helmet. I think that's the biggest con of Kudo - you're still getting the brain trauma after all.

Personally I think while Kudo does give some bad habits - Kyokushin will give you significantly worse habits that is very detrimental when you step outside of knockdown into another art.



I must confess, I have no fucking clue what the point of those stupid space helmets are.

How dare you!

On a level - they protect from cuts/bruises & broken noses/bones. But I will add though that they are incredibly difficult to breathe in - it takes a while to adjust so you can breathe in it properly.


I dunno. I haven't worn the space helmets personally but I've always been curious about them.

If the opportunity arose, I'd try strapping one and doing a round of sparring one day to see how it felt.

First time I sparred in that space helmet - I literally gassed in a minute or 2 - which has never happened to me before. You'd probably encounter the same thing - nearly everyone who puts them on for the first time has the same experience. Then I just ate shots for the other 3 minutes - as I was way too slow reacting because I couldn't breathe properly in the helmet and gassed bad because of it.

Probably amazing for cardio but not the best thing to spar in. It would probably be better to spar with no headgear on & just control your shots. Light to the head & slightly harder to legs/body. Unfortunately though as well all know - it's difficult to get people to spar that way. There's always jackasses that spar harder than they should.

The helmet also presents a larger target - so sometimes you might do enough to slip or avoid a punch but still get hit with a punch. That happened to me a lot in the beginning but it goes away when you get more experience using the helmet - you judge the range better with more experience.

Oh yeah and if you don't use de-fog spray on the helmet's plexi-glass - it fogs up. So there can be instances where you can barely see punches/kicks coming lol.
 
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Don't get me wrong, I find kyokushin ridiculous in concept (no offense to the guys here that do it) - but I'm not sure I find that quite as hard as wearing a big ol' helmet that can get knocked backwards into your own neck vertebra - which is my main issue

I've been hit with a lot of shots with that helmet on. I can safely say - I'd have been in much worse shape without the headgear on. As a piece of safety equipment for your face - it does it's job.

On the other hand when I switched from Kyokushin to Kudo - I had to unlearn a lot of things.

One of the biggest things I had to unlearn was body punching. In kyokushin - with knockdown sparring you don't really have to learn entries (i.e. how to open the body up for shots) whereas opening up space for a shot to the body is important in learning how to actually throw shots to the body (in MMA or boxing etc). You also don't learn how to get your head off the centre-line for any sort of punching - so you'll often see many people that practice kyokushin very static with the head almost always on the centre-line which makes it easy for them to get hit - with every punch they throw.

There's a big ass list of problems. But I respect the art and recognize that knockdown is a sport that's probably much safer for your health than kickboxing, MT, kudo or MMA. It's a safe alternative for a combat sport that keeps your brain healthy. It's ridiculous in the sense that it wouldn't prepare you very well to deal with the number one thing you'd expect to deal with in a self defence scenario or a combat sport - a punch to the head. Of course you might be ok with dealing with the average joe - but even a looping punch can clip you and automatically invalidate all that physical conditioning & mental toughness from knockdown sparring.
 
@Azam I love reading your posts, very informative. what are your thoughts on kajukenbo?
 
The helmet also gives the tendency for people to spar much harder than they should because of the plexi-glass on the helmet.

That's basically what I meant with "it also gives the fighter a false sense of security and kind of removes the fear of punches - that's not really a good thing to fight like a brawler not being afraid of headshots because you have that helmet to protect you".

Personally I think while Kudo does give some bad habits - Kyokushin will give you significantly worse habits that is very detrimental when you step outside of knockdown into another art.

I won't deny that Kudo is much better for learning proper distancing and of course grappling. The main detrimental habits of knockdown for striking are probably the distancing and being used to punches coming to the head, but other than that it's pretty solid and it's easier to adjust to other full contact combat sports coming from Knockdown as opposed to other traditional martial arts which don't train full contact with knees and low kicks IMO.

It's ridiculous that Knockdown wouldn't prepare you very well to deal with the number one thing you'd expect to deal with in a self defence scenario or a combat sport - a punch to the head. Of course you might be ok with dealing with the average joe - but even a looping punch can clip you and automatically invalidate all that physical conditioning & mental toughness from knockdown sparring.

I would just add here that this is very dependant on the dojo as some Kyokushin dojos do train and sparr with head punches (not the majority it seems though). In my dojo for instance we did practice defence against incoming head punches with drills which included movement, strikes, arm locks and throws that our instructor used in non sport situations (he worked in a prison).

But I will add though that the Kudo helmets are incredibly difficult to breathe in - it takes a while to adjust so you can breathe in it properly.

Just like in space! (yes I did go there) :D
 
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I can confirm the space helmet doesn't really protect you from the impact. All it does is spread the force of impact across the helmet - so you don't get cut or bruised. But you are still taking the impact to the head.

I've had instances of headaches/spacing out after some hard sparring sessions. I also know others that have complained of headaches/spacing out after harder sparring.
That's understandable but I still believe that receiving a kick to a sensitive area like the temple is much more dangerous without headgear. Still gives you brain damage but probably won't kill you on the spot, while a pin point strike to the temple might.

First time I sparred in that space helmet - I literally gassed in a minute or 2 - which has never happened to me before. (...)
Probably amazing for cardio but not the best thing to spar in.
This is interesting. After getting used to helmet fighting do "normal" no-helmet sparring sessions seem easier? Fighters from all sorts of combat sports use masks or high-altitude training for cardio - looks like the Kudo helmet does the same thing?
The helmet also presents a larger target - so sometimes you might do enough to slip or avoid a punch but still get hit with a punch. That happened to me a lot in the beginning but it goes away when you get more experience using the helmet - you judge the range better with more experience.
Wondering if the "increased dodge range" helps in no-helmet fighting by adding that extra inch of "safe distance", if you understand what I mean?
 
I won't deny that Kudo is much better for learning proper distancing and of course grappling. The main detrimental habits of knockdown for striking are probably the distancing and being used to punches coming to the head, but other than that it's pretty solid and it's easier to adjust to other full contact combat sports coming from Knockdown as opposed to other traditional martial arts which don't train full contact with knees and low kicks IMO.

I think there is a whole load of other stuff. You must have had more than those issues right? The distancing is a huge one but off the top of my head - we don't learn to move our heads off centre when we throw punches in knockdown, we don't learn how to open the body for shots because in knockdown it's already open for shots, we don't learn how to slip/bob/weave, we don't learn how to control/maintain range, we learn pretty poor fundamentals (square-on, hands low, poor footwork) all at close range. I think even our punching technique isn't particularly great when you take it outside of knockdown karate - we don't even really learn the versatility/importance of the jab in setting things up - the jab we learn in knockdown is very basic etc. There are pros of course - we both know what they are.

I don't agree. I think it's harder to transition from kyokushin to MMA for example - I think if you did point fighting the transition would be easier. You can learn new techniques like knees/low kicks & you can be conditioned to full contact fighting. It's much harder to break poor habits - and I think you'd have to break more habits with someone from a Kyokushin background.

I think though for something like kickboxing or MT - someone from a Kyokushin background would transition easier - in that regard I agree with you. That's because there's less things you'd need to unlearn.


I would just add here that this is very dependant on the dojo as some Kyokushin dojos do train and sparr with head punches (not the majority it seems though). In my dojo for instance we did practice defence against incoming head punches with drills which included movement, strikes, arm locks and throws that our instructor used in non sport situations (he worked in a prison).

Yes I agree but like you said those dojos are a very small minority and even some of those dojos don't spar often enough with head punches. The dojos I went to during Kyokushin training - in all those years - I can count on my hands the number of times we actually trained head punches. Most of it was knockdown sparring.
 
That's understandable but I still believe that receiving a kick to a sensitive area like the temple is much more dangerous without headgear. Still gives you brain damage but probably won't kill you on the spot, while a pin point strike to the temple might.

True it would probably be a bit safer with headgear but then you have to also think about your periphery/vision. Most headgear I've worn reduces your line of vision somewhat to the point some strikes land outside your line of vision. I'd rather have full vision and then try to defend from kicks to the head - as then it's on me if I get smacked. I think it either way is pretty good.


This is interesting. After getting used to helmet fighting do "normal" no-helmet sparring sessions seem easier? Fighters from all sorts of combat sports use masks or high-altitude training for cardio - looks like the Kudo helmet does the same thing?

I think you do feel much more alert to things being thrown at you - I wouldn't know if you could say sparring sessions are easier. But you definitely feel like you have much more energy when sparring without the headgear. The helmet doesn't have a lot of holes for breathing - so it's almost like a high-altitude/cardio type mask. I think if you wore that kudo headgear and did cardio exercises in it - you'd probably get similar benefits as your air supply is constricted in that headgear.

Wondering if the "increased dodge range" helps in no-helmet fighting by adding that extra inch of "safe distance", if you understand what I mean?

Not sure tbh. I don't think it really does. It's better I think to make smaller movements than larger one's regardless.
 
I think there is a whole load of other stuff. You must have had more than those issues right? The distancing is a huge one but off the top of my head - we don't learn to move our heads off centre when we throw punches in knockdown, we don't learn how to open the body for shots because in knockdown it's already open for shots, we don't learn how to slip/bob/weave, we don't learn how to control/maintain range, we learn pretty poor fundamentals (square-on, hands low, poor footwork) all at close range. I think even our punching technique isn't particularly great when you take it outside of knockdown karate - we don't even really learn the versatility/importance of the jab in setting things up - the jab we learn in knockdown is very basic etc. There are pros of course - we both know what they are.

I didn't really have issues with the distancing thanks to my Shotokan background and I was still doing some clicker type sparring while in Kyokushin. Some Kyokushin Karatekas might do when they transition but I was fortunate not to have that issue.

Not learning to move our heads off centre line is also an issue in other styles of Karate, at least from experience I didn't learn that in Shotokan either. I'd assume only in the styles that have some form of Kickboxing as part of the curriculum and competitions the students would practice that.

Changing levels and keeping hands high were big things where I trained Kyokushin, so to me keeping hands low and not knowing to change level is just poor instruction to me. Every time I'd drop my hands in sparring I could expect getting hit hard to the head from behind with a shinai, or even getting slapped in the face if sparring with one of the instructors or senior students.

As for the punching, we did practice most variations of punches in kihon and on pads, even a proper jab and punching combos to the head, again maybe I was lucky because both head instructors I trained under in 2 different dojos had backgrounds in boxing. What was lacking was sparring with punches to the head similar to K-1 / Dutch style kickboxing.

When I transitioned to Muay Thai the biggest thing I had to change was how my weight was distributed and shifting between my legs, also getting used to the MT "rhythm", and what was completely new to me was the clinching and stand-up grappling aspects + the set up and use of elbows - those were pretty much nonexistent in the Karate I trained. But overall the transition was pretty smooth.

I don't agree. I think it's harder to transition from kyokushin to MMA for example - I think if you did point fighting the transition would be easier. You can learn new techniques like knees/low kicks & you can be conditioned to full contact fighting. It's much harder to break poor habits - and I think you'd have to break more habits with someone from a Kyokushin background.

Again I guess it depends on how Kyokushin was practised, but I think you underestimate the importance of full contact fighting and conditioning. I know a lot of point fighting students who would really struggle with being hit full force or learning to strike in combos rather than relying on throwing one big strike at a time. Learning not to stop after landing one strike and learning to handle being hit hard are not easy things to get used to when you're a point fighter...
 
Back in 2012 I created a thread called "30 Successful Karate Fighters in MMA" (http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma.1040386/), later renamed to "100+ Karate Fighters in MMA" as the list grew. The thread got quite popular (50 pages of replies) but sadly it was lost during the forum migration.

Back then it had drawn some criticism for listing fighters whose experience in Karate was rather insignificant - which I now admit was justified. So instead of simply re-posting the old thread I have filtered out the rubbish and retained only cold facts: MMA fighters who legitimately hold black belts in Karate. No bias, no opinions, just a complete and comprehensive list.

The list is sorted by fighter NAMES in alphabetical order along with their corresponding STYLE and DAN rank.
  • Style "Sport" is used as an umbrella term for all kinds of sports / freestyle Karate.
  • Style "unknown" is used when my source states "Karate" without mentioning the exact style and I can't find any indication of the style.
  • DAN rank "1?" is used when my source states "black belt" without mentioning the exact rank.
New fighters are added periodically with a separate post describing their background and rank along with a highlight video.
_ _ _ _ _

View attachment 358501 View attachment 358503 View attachment 358505 View attachment 358507 View attachment 358509
Rolls Gracie´s lone Vale Tudo fight was against Paulo do Karaté in 1976...

This fight was part of the Challenge BJJ vs Karate, was the restart of the Vale Tudo Scence in the 1970s after years of crisis... this challenge led to the famous Rickson vs Rei Zulu in 1980.
 
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