Karate blackbelts in MMA

[Tayski]

Sport Karate / American Kickboxing is this half-breed bastard child that nobody wants. Traditional Karate guys scoff and call it "sloppy kickboxing". Kickboxers scoff and call it "sloppy Karate".

I've been generous enough to offer it a cozy spot on my Karate fighters list and now I'm getting flak.

Well there's a reason why it's rejected as Karate. It's really nothing like Karate IMO apart from having origins from there. As said in my previous post; they don't wear gi's, they don't have a syllabus with Kihon and Kata, they don't even use Okinawan or Japanese terms for techniques, and the competition format is different to any other Karate competitions.

But I can also see why some Kickboxers from the Japanese style / Dutch style / K-1 rules are upset about being put in the same bag as those semi-contact Kickboxers.

I'm not having a go at you for putting them in your list, I guess it makes Karate look good having the likes of Michael Page and Stephen Thompson in there because of their achievements and skills but as far as I know neither of those have an actual Karate black belt.

 

[Deleted member 466273]

If I say I'm a bear, does that make me a bear?

What they call "sports karate" is essentially what most of us call American style kickboxing.

If you think about it they don't do proper Kihon or Kata, they don't wear gi's, and their competition format is essentially Kickboxing with the long pants and no low-kicks.

My friends trains and competes in that format in the UK and they call it Kickboxing not Sports Karate.

Look at those below videos of Michael Page in those competitions and tell me if as a Karateka you consider that "sports karate". I can also guarantee you that you won't find any video of Michael Page wearing a gi.



WAKO stands for The World Association of Kickboxing Organisations by the way.

Rogan always says that side-on lead leg stances are Sport Karate.. When it's actually WAKO and light contact TaeKwonDo style. Annoys the fuck out of me.

 

[Azam]

If I say I'm a bear, does that make me a bear?

What they call "sports karate" is essentially what most of us call American style kickboxing.

If you think about it they don't do proper Kihon or Kata, they don't wear gi's, and their competition format is essentially Kickboxing with the long pants and no low-kicks.

My friends trains and competes in that format in the UK and they call it Kickboxing not Sports Karate.

Look at those below videos of Michael Page in those competitions and tell me if as a Karateka you consider that "sports karate". I can also guarantee you that you won't find any video of Michael Page wearing a gi.

Well if you think you are I'd say props to you lol.

On a level - when someone says they've trained in sports karate you have to take them at their word. I think it's a bit difficult or problematic to make the definition of what Karate is or isn't - or - who is practicing Karate & who isn't.

I agree it's basically American Kickboxing. It doesn't have kata. It probably does have kihon - just not the way we do kihon for example. The only thing it has is it's past roots in Karate and it shares a huge plethora of techniques with other point fighting karate styles.

Sports Karate is a competition format that he's competed in since he was a child. I think it's hard to say that he isn't a karateka - it depends on whether he considers himself one or not. In this case he does.

Do I personally consider it Karate? It's hard to say. Like @Hotora86 said it's a bastard love child that isn't either here or there. I think leaving it under the sports karate banner is probably best. We all know what that is.

 

[Azam]

Well there's a reason why it's rejected as Karate. It's really nothing like Karate IMO apart from having origins from there. As said in my previous post; they don't wear gi's, they don't have a syllabus with Kihon and Kata, they don't even use Okinawan or Japanese terms for techniques, and the competition format is different to any other Karate competitions.

But I can also see why some Kickboxers from the Japanese style / Dutch style / K-1 rules are upset about being put in the same bag as those semi-contact Kickboxers.

I'm not having a go at you for putting them in your list, I guess it makes Karate look good having the likes of Michael Page and Stephen Thompson in there because of their achievements and skills but as far as I know neither of those have an actual Karate black belt.

The kumite aspect is very similar to point fighting in most karate styles. Of course there is a bit of a difference - and we all can see it hence the debate of whether it can be called sports karate.

Stephen Wonderboy Thompson is a legit Karateka though. He has a blackbelt in Kempo (as part of their syllabus you're also required to learn kobudo). You can check it out at his school/dojo website: https://www.upstatekarate.com/programs

They wear gi, practice kihon & kata, have belt gradings & pretty much most of the content you'd find in most styles of Karate (uchi uke, age uke etc) is taught. Only difference is that the terminology is not Japanese and the kata/forms are unique to kempo.

I can see your point with MVP but Wonderboy isn't as ambiguous.

 

[Guestx]

lol ISKA also has Jiu Jitsu tournaments, is not Karate, is Kickboxing and i doubt he trained Karate

Your posts establish an insane amount of ignorance regarding the Karate world.

Time to stop. Too much Internet for you.

 

[Tayski]

On a level - when someone says they've trained in sports karate you have to take them at their word. I think it's a bit difficult or problematic to make the definition of what Karate is or isn't - or - who is practicing Karate & who isn't.

I agree it's basically American Kickboxing. It doesn't have kata. It probably does have kihon - just not the way we do kihon for example. The only thing it has is it's past roots in Karate and it shares a huge plethora of techniques with other point fighting karate styles.

Sports Karate is a competition format that he's competed in since he was a child. I think it's hard to say that he isn't a karateka - it depends on whether he considers himself one or not. In this case he does.

Do I personally consider it Karate? It's hard to say. Like @Hotora86 said it's a bastard love child that isn't either here or there. I think leaving it under the sports karate banner is probably best. We all know what that is.

I can't just take people's word about something when they're calling it with a different name than what it really is. It's like if I said "I've been doing MMA" after having trained Kyokushin Karate - it's just not the same.

Even Michael Page's biography states: "His father Master Curtis Page Sr. – a three-time kickboxing world champion – was his instructor. Of his nine siblings, his sister Sefena and brothers Curtis Jr., Jamie, and Kalon are also kickboxing world champions. Michael Page began training in Lau Gar at the age of 3 and competed at his first kickboxing tournament at the age of 5. By the age of 8, he began to devote himself to competition and entered his first international tournament in Germany."

So he started in Kung Fu at age 3 and Kickboxing age 5. He's a 5th dan in Kickboxing not "sports karate", and his father Curtis Page is a known Kung-Fu and Kickboxing instructor, not a Karate or Sports Karate instructor.

Having myself competed under the World Karate Federation (WKF) rules as a teenager, this is what you can call "Sports Karate" if anything, not that semi-contact Kickboxing style that Michael Page and others competed in. It might seem similar to the naked eye but they are actually different.

Karate without a Gi or its formalities isn't Karate to me. Name me a style of Karate where participants don't wear a gi and don't have to carry out the formalities that goes with Karate. Even Kudo still has both.

 

[Hotora86]

I can't just take people's word about something when they're calling it with a different name than what it really is. It's like if I said "I've been doing MMA" after having trained Kyokushin Karate - it's just not the same.

Even Michael Page's biography states: "His father Master Curtis Page Sr. – a three-time kickboxing world champion – was his instructor. Of his nine siblings, his sister Sefena and brothers Curtis Jr., Jamie, and Kalon are also kickboxing world champions. Michael Page began training in Lau Gar at the age of 3 and competed at his first kickboxing tournament at the age of 5. By the age of 8, he began to devote himself to competition and entered his first international tournament in Germany."

So he started in Kung Fu at age 3 and Kickboxing age 5. He's a 5th dan in Kickboxing not "sports karate", and his father Curtis Page is a known Kung-Fu and Kickboxing instructor, not a Karate or Sports Karate instructor.

Having myself competed under the World Karate Federation (WKF) rules as a teenager, this is what you can call "Sports Karate" if anything, not that semi-contact Kickboxing style that Michael Page and others competed in. It might seem similar to the naked eye but they are actually different.

Karate without a Gi or its formalities isn't Karate to me. Name me a style of Karate where participants don't wear a gi and don't have to carry out the formalities that goes with Karate. Even Kudo still has both.

Is no-gi BJJ still BJJ?

 

[Tayski]

The kumite aspect is very similar to point fighting in most karate styles. Of course there is a bit of a difference - and we all can see it hence the debate of whether it can be called sports karate.

Stephen Wonderboy Thompson is a legit Karateka though. He has a blackbelt in Kempo (as part of their syllabus you're also required to learn kobudo). You can check it out at his school/dojo website: https://www.upstatekarate.com/programs

They wear gi, practice kihon & kata, have belt gradings & pretty much most of the content you'd find in most styles of Karate (uchi uke, age uke etc) is taught. Only difference is that the terminology is not Japanese and the kata/forms are unique to kempo.

I can see your point with MVP but Wonderboy isn't as ambiguous.

That semi-contact kickboxing is actually different to karate kumite, even WKF rules.

And that Tetsushin-ryū Kempo is basically American Kempo, which we could also argue is different to Karate too. The formality and Japanese terminology of Karate has been removed.

The way I see it, it's similar to saying that Kickboxing is Muay Thai because Kickboxing has been influenced by Muay Thai. That's just not right - it has lost the traditional aspects of Muay Thai, the terminology for techniques, etc.

 

[Tayski]

Is no-gi BJJ still BJJ?

Both are BJJ as you know, come on I'm sure you can find a better counter argument than that.

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/gi-and-no-gi-jiu-jitsu-what-are-the-differences/

Is Kickboxing still Muay Thai? The answer is no. Just like semi-contact Kickboxing / American Kickboxing isn't Karate.

 

[Hotora86]

That semi-contact kickboxing is actually different to karate kumite, even WKF rules.

And that Tetsushin-ryū Kempo is basically American Kempo, which we could also argue is different to Karate too. The formality and Japanese terminology of Karate has been removed.

They kept BELTS and BELT TESTING. No legitimate Muay Thai or Kickboxing org has belt grading. That's enough "formality" to classify it as Karate.

You can also compare is to Sanshou / Sanda. It is a mix of Kung Fu styles practiced full contact with modified kickboxing rules. But it is still Kung Fu.

 

[Tayski]

They kept BELTS and BELT TESTING. No legitimate Muay Thai or Kickboxing org has belt grading. That's enough "formality" to classify it as Karate.

Lol @ belts being the indicator of something being Karate or not...

There are Kickboxing orgs and gyms with belts by the way, here's an example from around the corner of where I lived: http://www.paragongym.co.uk/index.php

I don't want to keep going back and forth about this, clearly you're not going to change your mind and want to call Kickboxing as Karate, and I definitely won't change my mind about it not being Karate either.

 

[Azam]

Karate without a Gi or its formalities isn't Karate to me. Name me a style of Karate where participants don't wear a gi and don't have to carry out the formalities that goes with Karate. Even Kudo still has both.

It's hard to define what is or isn't Karate. People have differing views on what qualifies as Karate and what doesn't.

Would you consider the Karate of the early 20th century Karate by that definition? Back then they didn't wear gi's and nor did they have the formalities that we have now. The Gi & formalities were imported from Judo - to make Karate more palatable to the Japanese.

I think everyone has their criteria. For myself it's the syllabus/ethos of the style that determines whether it is Karate or not. But I'm sure that people probably disagree with that criteria and use others to determine what is or isn't Karate to them.

Kudo has a gi & some formalities. Would I personally describe it as Karate - No. While it has some Karate in it - it's missing a large chunk of the Karate syllabus; there are no uke (uchi ucke, soto-uke, age-uke etc), no stances (no zenkutsu-dachi, no kokutsu dachi etc), no kata (no forms whatsoever), no tsukis (all punching techniques are derived from boxing) etc. What it does have is some shared techniques of Karate, Kihon & an ethos that's very similar to Karate. It's a hybrid style.

That semi-contact kickboxing is actually different to karate kumite, even WKF rules.

And that Tetsushin-ryū Kempo is basically American Kempo, which we could also argue is different to Karate too. The formality and Japanese terminology of Karate has been removed.

The way I see it, it's similar to saying that Kickboxing is Muay Thai because Kickboxing has been influenced by Muay Thai. That's just not right - it has lost the traditional aspects of Muay Thai, the terminology for techniques, etc.

Tetsushin-ryū Kempo has a syllabus that's almost identical to most styles of Karate though - they have tsukis, stances, uke, kata etc. They have kihon, kata and kumite. They have the same ethos as most styles of Karate too. They have the same gi & obi - and similar formalities albeit in English. They even make it a requirement to be proficient in kobudo before getting your shodan. That's as close to Karate as you can get. They have kyu gradings & shodan gradings. They just spar & compete under American kickboxing rules.

The only thing missing is the Japanese terminology. To be honest I don't think Japanese terminology is a criteria for whether a style is Karate or not. Karate itself wasn't even indigenous to Japan - it's indigenous to Okinawa (they have their own language). I think it would be harsh to say that because they don't learn the name of techniques in the original Japanese language - it's not Karate. Personally I think it's probably best to - it's a way of respecting the culture it came from but I'm not going to knock someone if they chose to switch the terminology to English and I don't think it means it's not Karate either.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

[

That semi-contact kickboxing is actually different to karate kumite, even WKF rules.

And that Tetsushin-ryū Kempo is basically American Kempo, which we could also argue is different to Karate too. The formality and Japanese terminology of Karate has been removed.

The way I see it, it's similar to saying that Kickboxing is Muay Thai because Kickboxing has been influenced by Muay Thai. That's just not right - it has lost the traditional aspects of Muay Thai, the terminology for techniques, etc.

he doesnt fight like any American Kempo guy I've seen

 

[Tayski]

Would you consider the Karate of the early 20th century Karate by that definition? Back then they didn't wear gi's and nor did they have the formalities that we have now. The Gi & formalities were imported from Judo - to make Karate more palatable to the Japanese.

It wasn't called "Karate" until Funakoshi in Japan decided to use that name for it and introduced the dogi and belt system from Judo. So by definition what was practiced before those times in Okinawa was "Te" and not "Karate".

The only thing missing is the Japanese terminology. To be honest I don't think Japanese terminology is a criteria for whether a style is Karate or not. Karate itself wasn't even indigenous to Japan - it's indigenous to Okinawa (they have their own language). I think it would be harsh to say that because they don't learn the name of techniques in the original Japanese language - it's not Karate.

The art of Karate (previously called Te) isn't indigenous to Japan but that's where the term "Karate" and the Japanese formalities were added to it. They do have their own language in Okinawa indeed and terms like Makiwara come from that language but in Okinawa they actually use a lot of Japanese terms for the techniques, stances, and even some of the weapons like the bo and the kama etc.

 

[Guestx]

Lol @ belts being the indicator of something being Karate or not...

There are Kickboxing orgs and gyms with belts by the way, here's an example from around the corner of where I lived: http://www.paragongym.co.uk/index.php

I don't want to keep going back and forth about this, clearly you're not going to change your mind and want to call Kickboxing as Karate, and I definitely won't change my mind about it not being Karate either.

Something to keep in mind is that, at least in the United States, kickboxing came from Karate and Taekwondo. In the early days it wasn't even called Kickboxing, it was called Full Contact Karate.

I'm speaking here of the days when guys like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Benny Urquidez were blazing the trail. All the early guys came from karate or some Korean equivalent, but had grown bored of point fighting and wanted to do something full-contact.

That's how kickboxing got started in America. And the guys like Michael Page are descended from that movement.

Jerry Trimble here came from TKD, which is pretty obvious when you watch the way he kicks. You'll also note that the referee is in a gi, another nod to the fact that American kickboxing came from the traditional styles.

 

[Guestx]

Earning a black belt in Karate takes 5-6 years minimum so that implies hard work and commitment and should have an impact on a fighters base.

Will have to disagree with you there.

I trained briefly at a Wado-ryu school that was probably the best karate school in the city. I feel confident saying that. It was definitely, as they say, "legit" karate.

But if you attended classes frequently enough (they were offered 5 days a week) and worked hard enough, you could get to black in about three years.

 

[noc]

Your posts establish an insane amount of ignorance regarding the Karate world.

Time to stop. Too much Internet for you.

lol the other guy tought iska is just karate, but i am the ignorant. Bye bitch you are boring me
Except Machida nobody uses Karate <45>
Don't quote because im not gonna read, this thread is a waste of time.. like the practice of karate lol

 

[Hotora86]

Will have to disagree with you there.

I trained briefly at a Wado-ryu school that was probably the best karate school in the city. I feel confident saying that. It was definitely, as they say, "legit" karate.

But if you attended classes frequently enough (they were offered 5 days a week) and worked hard enough, you could get to black in about three years.

Sure, if you practice 5 days per week instead of 2 you may reach black belt in 3 years instead of 5, I won't disagree. My point was that if you indeed put in all that work and time to achieve a black belt, it must mean something to you and impact your fighting style.

 

[Tayski]

Something to keep in mind is that, at least in the United States, kickboxing came from Karate and Taekwondo. In the early days it wasn't even called Kickboxing, it was called Full Contact Karate.

I'm speaking here of the days when guys like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Benny Urquidez were blazing the trail. All the early guys came from karate or some Korean equivalent, but had grown bored of point fighting and wanted to do something full-contact.

That's how kickboxing got started in America. And the guys like Michael Page are descended from that movement.

Jerry Trimble here came from TKD, which is pretty obvious when you watch the way he kicks. You'll also note that the referee is in a gi, another nod to the fact that American kickboxing came from the traditional styles.

And BJJ came from Judo, does that make Royce Gracie a Judoka?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

It's all just japanese kung fu at the end of the day