Throwback Just Watched Oliveira x Makhachev Again ...

[Fedora Millionankles]

I have forgotten more than you know, junior.

So how exactly do you “know when a fighter has given it their all?”
What metric are you using to gauge this?
Again, you don’t KNOW shit. You SPECULATE.

 

[Edward Henry Greb]

So how exactly do you “know when a fighter has given it their all?”

By having over 45 years' experience fighting and watching THE BEST fighters of the last half-century.

What metric are you using to gauge this?

By my experience which has been in existence likely longer than you've been alive.

Again, you don’t KNOW shit. You SPECULATE.

All of us (including myself) "speculate" as to our future prognostications.

Do you have a crystal ball, as to the future? Neither to I.

I get things wrong too.

But, over the last several decades, I get MUCH more right than I do wrong.

Have you even heard of "MMA" for more than 5 years?

 

[Wonderfight]

I don't disagree with your argument.

There is actually a video out there, with Khabib himself showing how to get out of an arm-triangle.

Your observations are in alignment with my own. I am not disagreeing with the strategy or timeline sequences.

What I'm disagreeing with is when Islam's finishing attempt was made, Charles made NO EFFORT to get out. He accepted it.

There were a multitude of techniques available to Charles to get out of that submission effort ... but he attempted none of them.

In watching fights for over 40 years, I have seen plenty of fighters who will never stop trying to win.

Again, I am a fan of Charles, he is exciting and reckless. But he is a wildcard.

At any moment, where he is fatigued, dominated, and "assesses he can't win" ... he is liable to QUIT ... without any further effort.

Well when you put it like that, I can completely agree. You can say that there exists a line which goes even beyond Charles, people who will try anything under the sun and then go to sleep if needed. I watched the Khabib video and it is a nice instructional, but those are definitely better circumstances than those Charles was victim of.

But in general, I agree with your last message. There is a line, however fine, which Charles won’t cross, as in he will accept that he cannot do more than he did. I don’t even blame him, but the fact is that there are fighters who won’t do that…

And yes, I always said he is a wildcard. He never stopped being one, only difference from before is that now he is much more lethal than in his early 20s. But even with being better everywhere, he will never fight a smart fight, it just isn’t in his blood. I cannot imagine a world where Islam or Khabib exert themselves that much in one round, no matter the position they are in.

 

[phenomphan2]

Islam turned out to be a better striker than Charles expected. Islam was also a much better striker than Volk expected.

Dariush was a much weaker striker than Islam.

 

[Habib The Eagle]

@Stone Golem

Great thread! Love these type of breakdown.

 

[Conan the K-9]

Yes, no one ever mentions this ...

And yet ... THE TOP submission killer (in the entire history of the UFC) had Islam setup for a triangle (after an up-kick to the face) ... but then the bell rang.

That’s because people don’t understand what they are watching. Charles was the fresher fighter, when they stood up and walked to their corners after round one.

There is a false narrative, that the fight was a one sided domination, a walk in the park for Islam and there is nothing to see in a rematch.
Same people claim that Dariush and FKL controlled Charles on the ground.

 

[spinitch]

Charles like other confident BJJ fighters, e.g. Werdum will go down to slow a strike attack. Opponents that rush in thinking he is hurt can get caught another part of the recovery position. It is harder to KO Charles while in his guard. Islam a capable grappler went for a sub and got a tired sort of dazed Charles. Only Charles knows his physical and mental state before Islam caught him. Excellent Grapplers do get caught. Anyone predict Jiri subn Glover? Few if any. There r other examples. Dazed n tired BJJ experts can get caught. Aoki just gets hammered.

 

[Cartiac]

Things are definitely slow in the UFC world when we are analyzing Dariush vs Islam based on performances against Oliveira, but we got to work with what we are given.

I like your detailed analysis, and agree with your overall point about tightness and moving with efficiency being key across the board in really all sports. I think that is a huge factor that separates Abdulmanap's Dagestani team from everyone else.

I don't agree with the statement about Oliveira giving up. He is very comfortable and confident being on his back and while it may seem like he is not trying that is him being efficient with his movements like he did midway through the 1st round against Islam and Dariush.

Against Dariush he was not going to rush to stand up with Darisuh there just waiting to smash him if he tried. He waited until he had distance and Dariush a bit off balance to make a safe move back to his feet.

Against Islam, about midway through the first round you can see Charles on his back patiently work until he was able to break Islam's upper body control, getting his foreman under Islam's head and pushing it up and at the same time quickly letting go of his guard to put his legs on Islam's thighs and push off freeing the lower body as well leading to a scramble where he was able to get back to standing. Very hard to do against Islam.

I would also argue that maybe Charles was not badly hurt in the second, but he was hurt significantly enough that lead him to make the fatal mistake of throwing up those kicks in a loose transitional state instead of just trying to get into the safety of guard. Throwing up his legs in that situation allowed Islam to get control of his legs and take away his biggest defensive weapon.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

Conor was pretty tired, he was really exhausted, much different than Charles. That individual TS said Charles got exhausted with that poker face like Charles never got wobbled because of the knockdown. This kid needs head treatment asap, casual af. But I got your point, Conor fought bravely, yes.

And still about Conor, you as a fan know that Conor's problem is like pride, not only him but many successful fighters. In his case, he always prefers to give necks than be ktfo by someone. I don't mind that behavior, one can be what he wants. After all, he was the one who tkoed everyone, it must be weird to him imagining getting the same treatment, I guess.

You can't shit on Conor for giving his neck, when Charlie just folded like a cheap lawn chair the second Islam had him hurt

I don't like Conor, but his performance against Khabib was WAY better than Charles vs Islam

I would pick that version of Conor to put Charlie into a coma with his counter punching

 

[UFConFOX]

That’s because people don’t understand what they are watching. Charles was the fresher fighter, when they stood up and walked to their corners after round one.

There is a false narrative, that the fight was a one sided domination, a walk in the park for Islam and there is nothing to see in a rematch.
Same people claim that Dariush and FKL controlled Charles on the ground.

No, there is no narrative. Islam ate an upkick a few seconds before the round ended. Charles owned that last10 seconds. Islam dominated 3 minutes. If you want to convince yourself that Islam didn't look as great as Charles 3 seconds after absorbing Charles's best strike of the fight? That's called MMA and it's insulting AF to suggest Oliviera's best strike in a fight wouldn't make his opponent weary for at least a few seconds. The indirect shade that you haters throw at Charles, via ignorance, is a damn shame.

Since you're a new fan, I'd suggest watching Oliviera/Islam. This will give you an idea of what we consider "domination". One fighter is better on the ground, standing, and against the cage. Only one fighter was taken down, knocked down, and tapped. These are hallmarks, again, of domination.

 

[cburm]

Gotta go with olivera in the rematch I think he understands how islams style of fighting works and that islam can strike now he was to focused on pressure the guy caught and dropped trying to rush a flying knee in with no setup or much fight iq

Islam is patient and counters and goes offensive for a td if charles goes 100 miles an hour again I think hel get caught dp and gaethje chandler were trying to catch him tomuch chasing

 

[Rektkid]

Watch the end of Round 1: Islam gave Oliveira some space, almost got up-kicked, immediately after which Oliveira caught Islam in the beginnings of a triangle-choke. Then the bell rang.

Obviously, I cannot say for sure whether Oliveira would have finished Islam, but Islam was in a bad spot — against the best finisher in UFC history.

Really watched the tape.

Agree Charles did look like he was trying a submission attempt at the end of the round BUT not sure he would have succeeded based on how he performed in round 2. To me, the control time of Islam exhausted Charles and in round 2 he opted to defend the takedown attempts rather than take guard.

 

[checktheknuckles]

Seriously Conor made it to the 4th round against khabib and people gave him shit for tapping

Only reason why Conman made it to the 4th was bc of his 15+ blatant cheating fouls.

 

[Edward Henry Greb]

Islam turned out to be a better striker than Charles expected. Islam was also a much better striker than Volk expected.

Dariush was a much weaker striker than Islam.

Yes. I rewatched the fight a couple more times.

Islam was quicker on the draw than Charles.
Surprise Charles with a straight left cross, right smack in the face, very early in Round 1.

Islam's reflexes and punching were quicker than Charles'.
Makhachev also threw straighter punches, while Charles was a little slower, and his punches were little more arced.
I don't see Oliveira land any significant strikes – he mostly missed or through glancing blows.
Meanwhile, Makhachev landed clean shots throughout both rounds.

Makhachev was really fast in his reflexes on the ground too.

I would like to see them fight again, but I'm not sure how Charles is going to beat a guy who is faster than he is, is likely stronger, and also throws the straighter/cleaner punches, while being repeatedly the first on the draw.

Maybe if Charles has the best night of his life, while Makhachev has an off-night, Charles has a shot in regaining his title. I think you will be everyone else.

Against Makhachev, I'm not sure how Charles at his age can improve his speed.
Maybe Oliveira will nail Makhachev one of those triangle chokes from his back – which is always a possibility with Charles — but after re-watching the fight several times, I just think Islam is basically too strong, too technically clean, while being faster than Oliveira, both standing as well as on the ground.

 

[Tweak896]

My issue with rematches is the amount of time dedicated to it. Lets say Islam is booked against Olivera again...

-Not even going to get into how much time was wasted trying to book Islam vs RDA/Dariush, but needless to say he ended up fighting Hooker/Green with normal BS to even get him the title shot, but it took awhile to get there.
- (8 months) Beat Green in Feb 2022, looks next level, waits 8 months later to fight Olivera.
- (5 months) Beats Olivera, but because of the fight he has to heal up, get another fight signed, and do a training for next fight with Volk in February 2023.
- (8 months) Still no fight booked, but lets say we get this rematch in Oct 2023.
- (5 months) Since I'm making shit up, might as well copy previous timeline and another fight Feb 2024.

My point is that from the perspective of how much fighting Olivera influences his setup and recovery time, he'll have dedicated 26 months- before/after Olivera fights two times during his prime at 31, and people who want him to rematch Volk after means he'll probably waste almost 3 years on 2 guys in the deepest division of talent. This is why rematches suck, and if Islam smashes both guys again his standing doesn't even change.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Hey whatever happened to ackned?

 

[HHJ]

Oliviera doesn’t quit when he’s in a fire fight. He quits when his attacks are negated, the pace is slowed down, and doubt starts to creep in.

Islams team understand the psychology of Charles, whereas Dustin/Justin/Dariush got it completely wrong.

Islam/Khabib style just naturally breaks dudes down anyway

 

[HHJ]

This is why rematches suck, and if Islam smashes both guys again his standing doesn't even change.

Yep. All UFC cares about is Islam wrecking another challenger in abu dhabi

 

[Deleted member 592659]

Seriously Conor made it to the 4th round against khabib and people gave him shit for tapping

Khabib was enjoying harassing him through the rounds. Islam is more calm mindy, very economical

 

[egk]

Charles has imposed his will physically against all the top guys except Islam. That's pretty impressive beating Poirier, Gaethje and Chandler like that. And now Dariush.
On the other hand, he's fought a bit out of control against all of them as well. Looking to end fights makes for excitement but I think he needs to gameplay better if he wants to win the title again.