"Junior Dos Santos Was Never The Same After The Cain Trilogy"...

[fzoid4454]

As a massive JDS fan, this is the most annoying popular opinion. So many people regurgitate this line and have zero idea what they're taking about. They see clips of the fights and the aftermath then look at his record and immediately assume JDS fell off. This is extremely disrespectful and dead wrong.

Tony Ferguson accumulated damage for over a decade before the war with Justin, which was the final straw. Chuck was an iron chinned monster spanning entire eras before the accumulated damage from multiple wars finally caught up with him. JDS isn't some fragile little boy who had a accident and can't play ball anymore. He was relatively unscathed before the Cain wars and you think he could go from fresh fighter to past his prime just like that? How weak do you think he is?

Good thing we can easily see that this belief is completely wrong. Immediately after the second Cain fight he went to war with Stipe and his cardio, his speed, his power, his durability... he looked truly amazing there against a very dangerous opponent.

As for his record, Junior is a dynamic, heavy handed fencing type boxer with great grappling and takedown defense. Before the Cain trilogy his best opponents were

• old Cro Cop
• still green in striking Werdum
• powerful but slow Roy Nelson
• Gonzaga
• the always dangerous Shane Carwin
• BJJ specialist Frank Mir

Not saying they're not good wins. Werdum and Mir were dangerous but JDS's elite grappling defense was good enough to keep it on the feet. They are all good wins and dangerous men but JDS is JDS; he was just better than them or his abilities countered their styles.

After Cain, who did he lose to?

• Alistair Overeem
• Champion Stipe Miocic

These days it's clear he's a shadow of the man he used to be, but his decline did NOT start immediately after Cain had his hand raised in their third fight. What's more, although JDS is far weaker now than he used to be he's still a top 15 UFC HW who only lost to the best. Even now he has a chance of becoming champion in any organization outside the UFC. Unless of course, the four straight losses deteriorated his chin too much but we don't know that.

• ONE: Arjan Bhullar. JDS destroys him.
• Bellator: Valentin Moldavski: great fight but IMO JDS is better on the feet and Moldavski wouldn't be able to get it to the ground
• PFL: Philipe Lins won one. If JDS enters, he'd be a huge favorite.

After Cain, who did he beat that compared to anyone he beat, pre-Cain? Derrick Lewis, back before Lewis bothered doing any cardio training? Plus, there are these things called eyes that we all have. For those not wearing Jr.-rose-colored glasses, you could see he wasn't the same guy who looked pretty close to invincible when he was champ.

Severe beatings can mess you up and diminish you, permanently. There's nothing to suggest he kept rolling along, at previous levels, and then suddenly and more recently started declining. He was never the same after the Cain fights, and the decline has continued and become more pronounced recently.

 

[Miokink026]

After Cain, who did he beat that compared to anyone he beat, pre-Cain? Derrick Lewis, back before Lewis bothered doing any cardio training? Plus, there are these things called eyes that we all have. For those not wearing Jr.-rose-colored glasses, you could see he wasn't the same guy who looked pretty close to invincible when he was champ.

Severe beatings can mess you up and diminish you, permanently. There's nothing to suggest he kept rolling along, at previous levels, and then suddenly and more recently started declining. He was never the same after the Cain fights, and the decline has continued and become more pronounced recently.

• He was never the same after the Cain fights

Might it be possible for you to list how? He fought Stipe next. How did he showcase to you that he deteriorated in whatever way?

 

[RockyLockridge]

Here are the main points from the conversation:

• You: he was less agressive and willing to engage or take the center of the octogon
• Me: This is nothing new and does nothing to prove "JDS was never the same". In fact, this is simply stating what he always do and it's been his weakness from day 1.

So I will ignore this attempt at trying to make it seem like I didn't destroy your little explanation and ask again, do you have any proof that JDS looked weaker immediately after the Cain trilogy?

ok

 

[Protectandserve]

You could absolutely tell he became gunshy after the third fight.

Less confident in his chin and less aggressive for sure. He was an absolute monster before the Cain fights and his aggression and confidence in his chin plugged up some holes in his striking game. With those gone the holes were very visible

 

[Marko Polo]

Cain beat the fight out of him

 

[DesiredUserName]

I always thought that the idea of Cain > JDS because of the fact that he won 2 out of 3 to be totally bogus.
JDS accomplished more. For that matter, what did Cain ever do after fighting JDS?

Have 'em repeat their careers and meet at different times and JDS might well come out on top. JDS could (stress "could have") drop him at any time. These things play out differently depending upon circumstances.

Me? If I had to choose one at their prime against a random top contender, it's JDS. JDS just does not get the respect he deserves because of one rubber match fight. Silly as hell.

 

[Shaddows]

As a massive JDS fan, this is the most annoying popular opinion. So many people regurgitate this line and have zero idea what they're taking about. They see clips of the fights and the aftermath then look at his record and immediately assume JDS fell off. This is extremely disrespectful and dead wrong.

Tony Ferguson accumulated damage for over a decade before the war with Justin, which was the final straw. Chuck was an iron chinned monster spanning entire eras before the accumulated damage from multiple wars finally caught up with him. JDS isn't some fragile little boy who had a accident and can't play ball anymore. He was relatively unscathed before the Cain wars and you think he could go from fresh fighter to past his prime just like that? How weak do you think he is?

Good thing we can easily see that this belief is completely wrong. Immediately after the second Cain fight he went to war with Stipe and his cardio, his speed, his power, his durability... he looked truly amazing there against a very dangerous opponent.

As for his record, Junior is a dynamic, heavy handed fencing type boxer with great grappling and takedown defense. Before the Cain trilogy his best opponents were

• old Cro Cop
• still green in striking Werdum
• powerful but slow Roy Nelson
• Gonzaga
• the always dangerous Shane Carwin
• BJJ specialist Frank Mir

Not saying they're not good wins. Werdum and Mir were dangerous but JDS's elite grappling defense was good enough to keep it on the feet. They are all good wins and dangerous men but JDS is JDS; he was just better than them or his abilities countered their styles.

After Cain, who did he lose to?

• Alistair Overeem
• Champion Stipe Miocic

These days it's clear he's a shadow of the man he used to be, but his decline did NOT start immediately after Cain had his hand raised in their third fight. What's more, although JDS is far weaker now than he used to be he's still a top 15 UFC HW who only lost to the best. Even now he has a chance of becoming champion in any organization outside the UFC. Unless of course, the four straight losses deteriorated his chin too much but we don't know that.

• ONE: Arjan Bhullar. JDS destroys him.
• Bellator: Valentin Moldavski: great fight but IMO JDS is better on the feet and Moldavski wouldn't be able to get it to the ground
• PFL: Philipe Lins won one. If JDS enters, he'd be a huge favorite.

I kind of disagree with you.
Getting beaten, to the way he was from Cain puts a dump in your self-trust.
Pre-Cain, Junior would launch himself at his opponent, and would go toe-to-toe with them, betting on who was the better fighter, and who could take more damage.
Post Cain, his approach was to stay at a distance, get in and get out.

And when he got hit, he crumbled.
That's what happened on AO fight... and with Francis, and with Blaydes, and with Jairzinho and Gane.


yes, his chin is an accumulation. I agree.
but his "careful" style was direct result of the humbling (and self-doubt induced) beating he took from Cain.

And it is not just him. Many fighters who won mostly because they trust themselves and took chances, and once they lost, they simply couldn't get back to taking those chances.... Renan Barao was one of them.
Unbeaten until TJ... a shadow of himself since.
It is indeed sad... i understand you. I love him as well.... but you gotta face the truth... Cain took more than his belt.

 

[Miokink026]

I kind of disagree with you.
Getting beaten, to the way he was from Cain puts a dump in your self-trust.
Pre-Cain, Junior would launch himself at his opponent, and would go toe-to-toe with them, betting on who was the better fighter, and who could take more damage.
Post Cain, his approach was to stay at a distance, get in and get out.

And when he got hit, he crumbled.
That's what happened on AO fight... and with Francis, and with Blaydes, and with Jairzinho and Gane.


yes, his chin is an accumulation. I agree.
but his "careful" style was direct result of the humbling (and self-doubt induced) beating he took from Cain.

And it is not just him. Many fighters who won mostly because they trust themselves and took chances, and once they lost, they simply couldn't get back to taking those chances.... Renan Barao was one of them.
Unbeaten until TJ... a shadow of himself since.
It is indeed sad... i understand you. I love him as well.... but you gotta face the truth... Cain took more than his belt.

The fights you listed, with Gane, Bigi Boy and Blaydes... they were at a time when JDS was definitely a shadow of his former self. I meant immediately after the trilogy as in a truly literal sense. What you said I agree with. His style change, his quick decline... I agree that the Cain fights took a heavy toll on him but what I disagree is that JDS was immediately a worse fighter after Cain.

 

[fzoid4454]

• He was never the same after the Cain fights

Might it be possible for you to list how? He fought Stipe next. How did he showcase to you that he deteriorated in whatever way?

Slower, less resilient, less explosive, less durable, not as crisp, defensively, not as able to absorb punishment as before.

"In just about every way" would have been quicker, but I figured you would want more detail.

 

[TP4iR]

Junior should be lucky that all three fights weren't at sea level, he probably would not have made it to three.

 

[jsbx45]

You're right TS, he wasn't totally shot. He had a bit of a renaissance 2018-19 and I thought it was surprising and cool. He's pretty shot now I suspect though. Hope isn't planning on taking too much more damage.

 

[Shaddows]

The fights you listed, with Gane, Bigi Boy and Blaydes... they were at a time when JDS was definitely a shadow of his former self. I meant immediately after the trilogy as in a truly literal sense. What you said I agree with. His style change, his quick decline... I agree that the Cain fights took a heavy toll on him but what I disagree is that JDS was immediately a worse fighter after Cain.

Well, not in skills... but he lost some trust in himself IMO.
You know, like I tried to (very poorly) explain
Being dominated like that plays a part and takes away that core belief you could outlast anyone.
and as your style change, and you start losing, it just gets worse. And even with a win (over lower ranked opponents) does not take that away...

I gave you the example of Renan.
I give you another example: Machida.
Before his loss to Rua, he was 16-0.
Perfect record!

Then he went 10-11.

Now, he didn't even have to "take a beating" that Junior did. But it affected his game. To the point that if you look at his record after the loss, it is a mediocre record (for someone that was able to get to 16-0 beating some good fighters!).

 

[Megatronlee]

It wasn’t the same

 

[Miokink026]

Slower, less resilient, less explosive, less durable, not as crisp, defensively, not as able to absorb punishment as before.

"In just about every way" would have been quicker, but I figured you would want more detail.

How was he immediately less durable and less able to absorb punishment when he traded bombs with Stipe for 5 rounds? He ate everything Stipe threw and was just fine, wasn't even rocked.

 

[rakeleaves]

I was pretty certain he looked like he lost a step watching JDS vs Stipe 1, even though he won that fight. Nice narrative tho.

 

[SithJiuJitsu]

Shadow of his former self? He just be the best professional wrestler of all time and his first fight with the new promotion AEW nobody beats Chris Jericho with only one match and their belt

 

[arcadeperfect]

He took several careers worth of damage from 2012 to 2014. The Cain rematch in 2012 was a 5 round beating, he then rebounded with a tough fight with Mark Hunt, then another 5 round beating against Cain resulting in a TKO loss then the 5 round war with Stipe. All of those fights back to back to back to back is not going to increase longevity. By the time 2015 rolled around and he fought Overeem you could see his durability was pretty much gone.

 

[GNRXI]

You're contradicting yourself. You're saying he's not overrated, but he's not even close to GOAT HW.
Tons of people have him top 2-3 GOAT Heavyweights.
That's overrated.

Most people place Big Nog, Fedor and Stipe as the 3 GOAT HW's. Cain is usually not even in the top 5 but at best maybe 6th at least. Nevertheless, if we're strictly talking about UFC HW's, I don't see how Cain is below anyone besides Stipe and maybe JDS .

 

[DikiRoly]

Stipe, Cain and then JDS.

 

[Givvee]

He was never the same after the last Cain fight, his next fight was a close win against Miocic in fight where he got rocked multiple times, prior to that he had an iron chin, fighting some of the most heavy handed mma fighters in the world, including Hunt and Carwin.

After the first Stipe fight, he had weird fight against Overeem where he looked very gun shy, kind of like how francis looked against Derrick Lewis, and got knocked out. A win in between against Rothwell and the knocked out again against Stipe. This was very uncharacteristic for JDS, who was known for being a very aggressive striker, not afraid of getting hit. Then he had a couple of good performances against the likes of Ivanov, Tuaivasa and Lewis, but this wasn't the prime vintage JDS, this was a lesser, watered down version of the man that we used to see.