Law Juneteenth is now a National and Federal Holiday!!!!

[SmilinDesperado]

That probably depends how it's embraced. They teach kids in school about MLK on MLK Day, but most people don't take the day off in rememberance like we do on memorial day or independence day. We have an unspoken hierarchy of national holidays and as a nation we've decided to treat MLK day as second tier.

Juneteeth happens outside of a lot of kids typical school year, it will likely not be taken as a day of observation by many, so it's hard to imagine what it's observation will look like.

We don't know what it's going to be, or what value or change it will eventually bring about, but genreally it can only be a net positive.

As far as real change coming about, I'm not talking about how it'll be taught, or how kids will come to think of it 10 years from now.
I am talking about how politicians and the media are going to have to talk about it.
As it is right now, it's something that activists and black people talk about. Every now and then a white liberal will throw it a bone, and conservatives generally ignore and avoid any talk of it.
If it becomes a national holiday, it becomes national news and a national conversation. It's not going to be a conversation just between 'woke' protestors and people on a college campus.

 

[MaxMMA]

He wasn't the first European to discover America, the Vikings did it hundreds of years before him. We should probably get rid of the holiday if only so people stop believing this fake propaganda.

That's why I said first European in recorded history, learn to read.

Furthermore the Vikings landing here first didn't pave the way for modern western society to flourish in North America the way it did when Colombus landed here.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

He did discover it... In the context of our western society. Had Columbus not taken the risk of sailing across a body of water that other people did not want to risk doing, who knows how history, and our modern society would have been shaped? Prior to Colombus, who else was was talking about sailing across the Atlantic?

Just because one society swallowed another doesn't change what he did and how those events shaped our modern society.

And that "Western context" glosses over the fact that people were already living here, and that that 'discovery' and the risk of sailing that Colombus took directly led to rape, killing, and thieving.
That's the history. It is what it is. I'm not disputing that Colombus came here and that it was historically important. It is.
We can acknowledge that history without celebrating it, or white washing it.

 

[blaseblah]

That's why I said first European in recorded history, learn to read.

Furthermore the Vikings landing here first didn't pave the way for modern western society to flourish in North America the way it did when Colombus landed here.

Why are you clinging to this specific set of criteria? Why not celebrate the actual first Europeans to discover America? Or better yet, celebrate the people who were actually first to colonize the Americas. The premise of the holiday is false and based on hundreds of years of propaganda.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

The meeting/merger of the two major remaining isolated human population groups is more than a historical footnote. I can't think of anything more influential in the last 600 years. And he certainly did discover the new world for the old world populations.

Not liking him, or condemning his actions, doesn't change those things. And per your posts not talking about doesn't lead to understanding.

History doesn't need to live up to a purity test. Bad men have certainly done significant things. Or probably more accurately significant men often have often taken condemable actions.

Has nothing to do with purity tests.
The times and the people were what they were. I don't deny that.
But we can acknowledge history in full context without celebrating and whitewashing that history.
None of my posts are saying to wipe him from history. I'm not even saying that he wasn't a historical figure, but we certainly don't need a holiday dedicated to him.

 

[MaxMMA]

Why are you clinging to this specific set of criteria? Why not celebrate the actual first Europeans to discover America? Or better yet, celebrate the people who were actually first to colonize the Americas. The premise of the holiday is false and based on hundreds of years of propaganda.

Did the Vikings landing here first open the door to the society we are living in today?

Europeans were not ready to migrate to the Americas in mass at that time, when Colombus landed there, they were.

 

[MaxMMA]

And that "Western context" glosses over the fact that people were already living here, and that that 'discovery' and the risk of sailing that Colombus took directly led to rape, killing, and thieving.
That's the history. It is what it is. I'm not disputing that Colombus came here and that it was historically important. It is.
We can acknowledge that history without celebrating it, or white washing it.

How is it white washed? We know what he did, both the good and the bad. You yourself have admitted the significance of what he did. So what's really the problem here?

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Has nothing to do with purity tests.
The times and the people were what they were. I don't deny that.
But we can acknowledge history in full context without celebrating and whitewashing that history.
None of my posts are saying to wipe him from history. I'm not even saying that he wasn't a historical figure, but we certainly don't need a holiday dedicated to him.

It's hardly white washed if every 12 year old with youtube access knows about the crimes he was accused of, not convicted of, doing 510 years ago. I'm not here to argue that one way or the other.

Can you think of a more significant event in northern/southern American history than his arrival? I'm struggling to.

 

[freakroor]

i thought it was called Emancipation Day. “juneteenth” sounds like a something a 5-year-old would say.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

It's hardly white washed if every 12 year old with youtube access knows about the crimes he was accused of, not convicted of, doing 510 years ago. I'm not here to argue that one way or the other.

Can you think of a more significant event in northern/southern American history than his arrival? I'm struggling to.

You seem to be trying to get me to argue something that I never claimed.
I never said that Columbus wasn't significant.

And no, every 12 year old doesn't know about those crimes. It's only been in recent years that it's been acknowledged and talked about in the mainstream.
And how many 12 year olds are on Youtube looking up American history facts anyways?
Again, I said nothing about erasing Columbus from history books. But the "discovery of America......that directly leads into the genocide of the natives" probably doesnt need a day to celebrate it.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

You seem to be trying to get me to argue something that I never claimed.
I never said that Columbus wasn't significant.

And no, every 12 year old doesn't know about those crimes. It's only been in recent years that it's been acknowledged and talked about in the mainstream.
And how many 12 year olds are on Youtube looking up American history facts anyways?
Again, I said nothing about erasing Columbus from history books. But the "discovery of America......that directly leads into the genocide of the natives" probably doesnt need a day to celebrate it.

"The discovery of America... that directly leads to the life you're living, the city you're living in, the food you eat, the languages you speak, and so much more."

You said 1494 and his three "stupid" ships were at best an interesting historical footnote. I'd argue that was easily one of the most significant historical events in the last 600 years.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

i thought it was called Emancipation Day. “juneteenth” sounds like a something a 5-year-old would say.

And that's by design.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

How is it white washed? We know what he did, both the good and the bad. You yourself have admitted the significance of what he did. So what's really the problem here?

As I said before, you can learn history, without celebrating it...especially when that history led to the atrocities that it led to. There are a lot of significant historical things that don't require holidays.

"Colombus Day" is just painting a rosy picture of the "discovery of America". We know what he did now, as adults. I certainly didn't learn it as a child when I was first exposed to him.

 

[Gregolian]

US Government employees sounds like are getting Friday off cause of Juneteenth.

Bet me, a county worker, still has to work though.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

"The discovery of America... that directly leads to the life you're living, the city you're living in, the food you eat, the languages you speak, and so much more."

You said 1494 and his three "stupid" ships were at best an interesting historical footnote. I'd argue that was easily one of the most significant historical events in the last 600 years.

In the context of whether or not he should be granted a national holiday, not over how historically significant it was for Europe to begin its colonization of the Americas.

Who he was and what he did should obviously be taught in history class. Put him in the history books. Make him and the name of his 3 ships a question on a midterm. Why does he also need to have a holiday?

 

[FierceRedBelt]

In the context of whether or not he should be granted a national holiday, not over how historically significant it was for Europe to begin its colonization of the Americas.

Who he was and what he did should obviously be taught in history class. Put him in the history books. Make him and the name of his 3 ships a question on a midterm. Why does he also need to have a holiday?

The forth of July is the only national holiday in the US more rightly than a celebration of 1494. And I've explained why I think it's significant not just to 15/16th century European's but to you a Japanese child with an African American father.

You don't exist without what he did.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

The forth of July is the only national holiday in the US more rightly than a celebration of 1494. And I've explained why I think it's significant not just to 15/16th century European's but to you a Japanese child with an African American father.

You don't exist without what he did.

A celebration of 1494 isn't the same thing as a celebration of Christopher Colombus. And even a 'celebration of 1494', or "When Europe met America" is....problematic.

This isn't like the 4th of July. Celebrating the "birth" of what we now know as America is also celebrating the destruction of the people that were here....people that are still here.
While all of this celebrating might not be an issue for someone that is white, a minority may obviously have different feelings on a few of these significant historical events when those events led to the abuse of their ancestors..especially if the remnants of that abuse are still visible.

Celebrating when the country became an actual country makes sense.
Celebrating the period of time where Europe was just butt raping the world? That's gonna be a 'no', for me dawg.
Acknowledging the period of time where Europe was butt raping the world? Sure.
History is history. Whether I would exist or not doesn't change how I should judge historical figures and their actions.
I wouldnt be here without slavery, or if America hadn't dropped the nuke either. That doesn't mean I should celebrate either of those things.

 

[djacobox372]

Of course it should be a holiday... it's the most defining moment in our history next to independence day.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

A celebration of 1494 isn't the same thing as a celebration of Christopher Colombus. And even a 'celebration of 1494', or "When Europe met America" is....problematic.

This isn't like the 4th of July. Celebrating the "birth" of what we now know as America is also celebrating the destruction of the people that were here....people that are still here.
While all of this celebrating might not be an issue for someone that is white, a minority may obviously have different feelings on a few of these significant historical events when those events led to the abuse of their ancestors..especially if the remnants of that abuse are still visible.

Celebrating when the country became an actual country makes sense.
Celebrating the period of time where Europe was just butt raping the world? That's gonna be a 'no', for me dawg.
Acknowledging the period of time where Europe was butt raping the world? Sure.
History is history. Whether I would exist or not doesn't change how I should judge historical figures and their actions.
I wouldnt be here without slavery, or if America hadn't dropped the nuke either. That doesn't mean I should celebrate either of those things.

Your same exact argument could be used on the 4th of July and the evils the new country took part in. I understand your stance and I've said what I wanted to say. Agree to disagree?

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Your same exact argument could be used on the 4th of July and the evils the new country took part in. I understand your stance and I've said what I wanted to say. Agree to disagree?

I would disagree that the 4th of July would be the same as a 1494 Day because we were an actual country on the 4th, and we at least had the ideas and framework down as to what kind of nation we wanted to be...even though we hadn't yet lived up to that standard.
It's not just about the evils, it's about what we were, and what we were aspiring to be. I can respect the 4th for that.
As historically significant as it is, 1494 was about conquest and riches.
But yeah, I think i've said all I can, and it's my bed time.
I understand where you're coming from though. Good chat, sir. It's been a while.