Judo Gene LeBell On Karl Gotch

[Slick_36]

Yeah, I thought the same thing about Brock vs. Josh around the time of the Brock-Mir rematch. Both trained with Erik Paulson. No doubt Josh knows more about submissions than Kerr or Lesnar, but what can he do off his back against a massive guy who's a better wrestler? It would've been interesting.

It would have looked like his fight against DC, in MMA with ground and pound, and grappling it would be a dominant but boring decision.

 

[mkt]

Who was supposed to represent Catch? I mean Ken Shamrock had plenty of success, and he was competing against pro wrestlers in Japan who were the last holdouts of competitive catch. And that was a revival of the sport if anything, eventually evolving in to MMA as we know it. Sakuraba dominated the Gracies, that was catch far past it's prime. At the time of Karl Gotch, the best catch guys would crush what BJJ had to offer.

Yeah, Shamrocks, Sakuraba, Paulsen, some Pancrase guys and later Josh have been the representatives of catch. I don't think BJJ is superior to catch; it's simply been marketed much more and had a chance to evolve. Before the UFC, the Gracies had been doing "Challenges" and various fights for like 6 decades--honing BJJ based on experience. Japanese-based Pancrase (an offshoot of pro wrestling) was only about a year old when the UFC started.

Catch had been passed on by pro wrestlers, carnival guys, etc. but it had no "lab" like the Gracies had in Brazil--and like BJJ has had since the 1990s--to evolve.

It's like VHS vs. Beta (for those early enough to remember) or Linux vs. Windows. One becomes popular (often due to better marketing and business practices) and that's what everyone uses.

 

[mkt]

Eh, all these guys were about saving face back then. Their livelihoods were based on their ability to sell their styles as the most effective so people would want to train under them. Without regulated places to compete, you got a lot of shady shit and accusations of shady shit. It's impossible to know what is true of these kinds of stories.

Yeah, there's a pretty well-validated story about Zane Frazier beating up Dux at a martial arts convention. According to Dux, it was more of an an assault than a fight, but who knows. That's why Zane was invited to the first UFC. But I later read some stuff from Frazier that was as far-fetched as anything Dux said. Zane talked about how he remembered training with Bruce Lee, but he would've been like a toddler if that happened.

 

[Slick_36]

Yeah, Shamrocks, Sakuraba, Paulsen, some Pancrase guys and later Josh have been the representatives of catch. I don't think BJJ is superior to catch; it's simply been marketed much more and had a chance to evolve. Before the UFC, the Gracies had been doing "Challenges" and various fights for like 6 decades--honing BJJ based on experience. Japanese-based Pancrase (an offshoot of pro wrestling) was only about a year old when the UFC started.

Catch had been passed on by pro wrestlers, carnival guys, etc. but it had no "lab" like the Gracies had in Brazil--and like BJJ has had since the 1990s--to evolve.

It's like VHS vs. Beta (for those early enough to remember) or Linux vs. Windows. One becomes popular (often due to better marketing and business practices) and that's what everyone uses.

And for the Japanese guys, that's sort of a bastardized version that was split between pro wrestling theatrics and old school functionality. I don't know what the lineage of Paulsen was. Pretty sure the Shamrock's catch experience was the same as the Japanese. It was definitely all a watered down version of what prime catch would have looked like. It's a shame we lost it. The old catch guys were too protective of the sport, instead of focusing on promoting it and inviting everyone like the Gracies, they kept people out of it except for a small handful of the toughest guys and kept the techniques a secret. It was good at the time but made it impossible to preserve or really grow.

 

[mkt]

And for the Japanese guys, that's sort of a bastardized version that was split between pro wrestling theatrics and old school functionality. I don't know what the lineage of Paulsen was. Pretty sure the Shamrock's catch experience was the same as the Japanese. It was definitely all a watered down version of what prime catch would have looked like. It's a shame we lost it. The old catch guys were too protective of the sport, instead of focusing on promoting it and inviting everyone like the Gracies, they kept people out of it except for a small handful of the toughest guys and kept the techniques a secret. It was good at the time but made it impossible to preserve or really grow.

What amazes me is how Sak adapted it to beat the Gracies so well and so quickly. From what I understand, he never formally studied BJJ. I think there's on account of he and another Pancrase guy going to California and rolling with one of the Gracie schools, but it was only like 1 day. The Gracies taught lay people, but were very guarded about teaching other fighters back then. That subject once caused a brawl with Tank Abbott's crew and some BJJ guys at an event. There was also a big stink when Joe Moriera (sp?) started teaching Kimo.

I guess Sak just watched enough tape and figured out what he needed to do. Pretty amazing. The Shamrocks and Lion's Den also learned quickly, especially Frank. He submitted guys off his back much faster than most BJJ guys.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Yeah, Shamrocks, Sakuraba, Paulsen, some Pancrase guys and later Josh have been the representatives of catch. I don't think BJJ is superior to catch; it's simply been marketed much more and had a chance to evolve. Before the UFC, the Gracies had been doing "Challenges" and various fights for like 6 decades--honing BJJ based on experience. Japanese-based Pancrase (an offshoot of pro wrestling) was only about a year old when the UFC started.

Catch had been passed on by pro wrestlers, carnival guys, etc. but it had no "lab" like the Gracies had in Brazil--and like BJJ has had since the 1990s--to evolve.

It's like VHS vs. Beta (for those early enough to remember) or Linux vs. Windows. One becomes popular (often due to better marketing and business practices) and that's what everyone uses.

That's what happens when you try to keep a mystique around something instead of showing your art to the world, building competition and schools to make it mainstream.

The Gracies (the Rorion side) were about to do the same as catch wrestling, keeping it to their few schools. They did well by creating the UFC and make them aware of the sport. But when it was time for people to actually learn it they didn't do that much.

It was a good thing that the Carlos side had built the powerful Gracie Barra schools making them ready to open school across the world. Same thing with Nova Uniao and BTT. If the world had waited after Rorion and Rickson to open BJJ school the sport wouldn't be where it is right now.

 

[MMAart]

Who was supposed to represent Catch? I mean Ken Shamrock had plenty of success, and he was competing against pro wrestlers in Japan who were the last holdouts of competitive catch. And that was a revival of the sport if anything, eventually evolving in to MMA as we know it. Sakuraba dominated the Gracies, that was catch far past it's prime. At the time of Karl Gotch, the best catch guys would crush what BJJ had to offer.

Ken Shamrock, Barnett, and Sakuraba were representatives of Catch Wrestling, and they did alright and held their own for a while, but Catch has never proven to be the top of the echelon of ground fighting. Sakuraba had success against the Gracie's, but this isn't proof that Catch is better than BJJ. Similarly, Machida's success against Rashad Evans and Thiago Silva isn't proof that Karate is a better striking martial art than Muay Thai and boxing, because the success was limited to a short period of time and limited to just Machida and a few fighters.

The story of Karl Gotch easily broke BJJ guys' legs is the typical fairy tale bullshit that plagued the early days of traditional martial arts when there were no MMA to expose bullshit claims such as "touch of death," "secret martial art that is only known to a few monks that live in some remote mountains," "insert some martial art fantasy here."

 

[Slick_36]

That's what happens when you try to keep a mystique around something instead of showing your art to the world, building competition and schools to make it mainstream.

The Gracies (the Rorion side) were about to do the same as catch wrestling, keeping it to their few schools. They did well by creating the UFC and make them aware of the sport. But when it was time for people to actually learn it they didn't do that much.

It was a good thing that the Carlos side had built the powerful Gracie Barra schools making them ready to open school across the world. Same thing with Nova Uniao and BTT. If the world had waited after Rorion and Rickson to open BJJ school the sport wouldn't be where it is right now.

And with the success of the UFC/MMA, we have more amateur wrestlers and to a lesser extent judoka cross training in BJJ than ever before. So you have more practitioners in sheer numbers, and influence from different perspectives and philosophies. Grappling in every discipline is growing right now, and will continue to for awhile.

 

[ralek4grammy]

It's like VHS vs. Beta (for those early enough to remember) or Linux vs. Windows. One becomes popular (often due to better marketing and business practices) and that's what everyone uses.

I'm glad that RDRAM lost against DDR. And Intel's new 64bit instruction set vs the AMD's evolutionary x64.

Sometimes the best technology wins...

Anyway - refreshing thread, for a change!! Thanks, TS!

 

[mirko>anyone]

As a huge fan of Barnett and a lover of catch, I unfortunately have to correct you here. Josh has, in fact, been submitted in MMA.

He made the comment 3 years ago...

 

[mkt]

Ken Shamrock, Barnett, and Sakuraba were representatives of Catch Wrestling, and they did alright and held their own for a while, but Catch has never proven to be the top of the echelon of ground fighting. Sakuraba had success against the Gracie's, but this isn't proof that Catch is better than BJJ.

As I said earlier, the main difference is that Catch never evolved. Frank and Ken had a falling out and Lion's Den became stagnant then died. If the Shamrocks, Sak, Barnett, etc. really pushed catch and started schools for the public (not just fighters) and even grappling tournaments, it might be totally different. But it never grew or progressed.

 

[Slick_36]

Ken Shamrock, Barnett, and Sakuraba were representatives of Catch Wrestling, and they did alright and held their own for a while, but Catch has never proven to be the top of the echelon of ground fighting. Sakuraba had success against the Gracie's, but this isn't proof that Catch is better than BJJ. Similarly, Machida's success against Rashad Evans and Thiago Silva isn't proof that Karate is a better striking martial art than Muay Thai and boxing, because the success was limited to a short period of time and limited to just Machida and a few fighters.

The story of Karl Gotch easily broke BJJ guys' legs is the typical fairy tale bullshit that plagued the early days of traditional martial arts when there were no MMA to expose bullshit claims such as "touch of death," "secret martial art that is only known to a few monks that live in some remote mountains," "insert some martial art fantasy here."

Like I already said, there were way fewer catch wrestlers than BJJ guys at the time of early MMA, and it was a watered down version of catch. And the opposite was true during Gotch's era. He was probably the best in the world at the time, it would be foolish to think that he couldn't leg lock random early BJJ practitioners. You comparing it to fantasy martial arts only shows your ignorance. The champions of the UFC are all wrestlers, and that wrestling descended from catch.

 

[Quebec Nick]

And with the success of the UFC/MMA, we have more amateur wrestlers and to a lesser extent judoka cross training in BJJ than ever before. So you have more practitioners in sheer numbers, and influence from different perspectives and philosophies. Grappling in every discipline is growing right now, and will continue to for awhile.

Yes, but those sports had the structure to sustain a growth and to meet the demand.

Catch wrestling and the ''original'' Gracies (Gracie humaita decending from Helio) would never have been able to have enough well trained professors, they didn't like the ''sport'' side of BJJ, and having to compete under a flawed ruleset. But it's also the best way to grow a martial art.

 

[Slick_36]

As I said earlier, the main difference is that Catch never evolved. Frank and Ken had a falling out and Lion's Den became stagnant then died. If the Shamrocks, Sak, Barnett, etc. really pushed catch and started schools for the public (not just fighters) and even grappling tournaments, it might be totally different. But it never grew or progressed.

There's been some attempts at bringing it back, with some catch rules tournaments. But it's never been close to capturing the momentum of BJJ, plus the lineages are broken it's approximation of catch more so than the real thing. Just the difference in sheer numbers means that the best pure BJJ guys would smash the current pure catch guys.

 

[mkt]

There's been some attempts at bringing it back, with some catch rules tournaments. But it's never been close to capturing the momentum of BJJ, plus the lineages are broken it's approximation of catch more so than the real thing. Just the difference in sheer numbers means that the best pure BJJ guys would smash the current pure catch guys.

Yep, the same is true of sambo, despite guys from Oleg to Fedor to Khabib representing it well in MMA.

 

[Slick_36]

Yes, but those sports had the structure to sustain a growth and to meet the demand.

Catch wrestling and the ''original'' Gracies (Gracie humaita decending from Helio) would never have been able to have enough well trained professors, they didn't like the ''sport'' side of BJJ, and having to compete under a flawed ruleset. But it's also the best way to grow a martial art.

That's why I mentioned making wrestling and judo (and by extension BJJ) safer to train and drill from a young age, at the cost of removing the more dangerous techniques, was the best thing that could have happened and allowed them to develop better grapplers.

 

[Quebec Nick]

There's been some attempts at bringing it back, with some catch rules tournaments. But it's never been close to capturing the momentum of BJJ, plus the lineages are broken it's approximation of catch more so than the real thing. Just the difference in sheer numbers means that the best pure BJJ guys would smash the current pure catch guys.

Basic statistic

With a greater talent pool, you have better chance to find an unbelievable talent.

That doesn't mean the art is better

 

[Quebec Nick]

That's why I mentioned making wrestling and judo (and by extension BJJ) safer to train and drill from a young age, at the cost of removing the more dangerous techniques, was the best thing that could have happened and allowed them to develop better grapplers.

That's all the benefits of a well structured sport VS of a lonely martial arts

 

[MMAart]

what are the early days of MMA to you?

they dominated shooto and pancrase, that's early MMA

then in the late 90s Sakuraba defeated the Gracies in PRIDE and Frank Shamrock was considered MMA's first ever 'all complete, god-tier fighter' in the UFC.
.

I consider UFC 1 to be the early days of MMA, because it was the first freestyle fighting competition with very minimal rules to simulate a real fight.

Pancrase was not truly MMA, because:

• No elbows to the head (neither while standing nor on the ground).
• No closed-fist strikes to the head (neither while standing nor on the ground).
• No knees to the head on the ground.
• No kicks/stomps to the head on the ground.

Shooto was a little more like MMA than Pancrase in that fist strikes were allowed, but its rule sets were still very restricted. For example, elbows weren't allowed. Ground and pound wasn't allowed. Also, fighters on the ground would get stood up after a short period.

somewhere in the middle of all that the UFC was created as a marketing exercise for BJJ...

While it may have been true that the Gracie used the UFC was a marketing platform for BJJ, the martial art itself was legit and proven to be one of the 3 most important bases of MMA at the top level of competition.

 

[MMAart]

And for the Japanese guys, that's sort of a bastardized version that was split between pro wrestling theatrics and old school functionality. I don't know what the lineage of Paulsen was. Pretty sure the Shamrock's catch experience was the same as the Japanese. It was definitely all a watered down version of what prime catch would have looked like. It's a shame we lost it. The old catch guys were too protective of the sport, instead of focusing on promoting it and inviting everyone like the Gracies, they kept people out of it except for a small handful of the toughest guys and kept the techniques a secret. It was good at the time but made it impossible to preserve or really grow.

Are there really any techniques from Catch Wrestling that don't already existed in BJJ, western wrestling, or Judo?

From what I have seen, Catch Wrestling is a hybrid of western wrestling and Judo, the no-striking "Sambo."