Judo Gene LeBell On Karl Gotch

[LostMyBlackBelt]

And Bruce Lee could punch a heavybag through a brick wall. A guy who knew a guy whose roommate used to train with him said so.

Nah, but George pretty much could

 

[superpunch]

I honestly think this is some romanticized machismo bullshit. The difference between Japanese jiu jitsu and judo during judo's creation was that the dangeorus moves were removed so that competitors could train without injury. Something similar happened around the same time as amateur wrestling split off from catch in the US, the subs were removed and wrestlers could train harder and longer.

The ability to train more means that even though the holds may not be as violent, their technique can be refined more and drilled hard. This creates a more reliable art with better grapplers at the top. Priding oneself on cranking all subs to hurt someone is great in the carnie days where you had to always watch your back and you never knew who you were facing (open challenges), but it's a poor way to grow in the modern day. You are as good as those you train with, and if you injure your best teammate, then you hurt yourself.

Notice that BJJ is spelled Ju Jutsu, not Jiu Jitsu. That's because it has nothing to with Jiu Jitsu. Judo did used to have an extensive ground and submission game. But we know from watching the UFC that the ground game is "gay" and "boring". So, they changed the rules to make it more entertaining on TV for the Olympics. Jiu Jitsu's ground game via Japanese expats in Brazil who taught old school Judo there that eventually became what we know today as BJJ.

 

[Slick_36]

Yeah, this toned down version is a lot more believable. Perhaps some judo/JJ guys trained with Gotch and he frequently tapped them with leg locks. I don't doubt he had better submissions than most judo/JJ guys in the U.S. back in his day.

There were definitely traveling grapplers at the time too. It wasn't like they were all isolated. You had cross style matchups frequently. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was influenced by judo and catch wrestlers touring in Brazil. It's how you have luta livre, the catch cousin to BJJ. There may not have been a lot of people working the guard at the time, especially those that travelled, but it's not impossible for Gotch to have come across guys that did. And even if he didn't, it probably would still have gone down like Gene said.

 

[Gmork]

I posted a thread like this back in 04' or so, when a friend and training partner (who was bigger, older and more experienced) tapped me a bunch of times with some catch moves.

I was flamed to pieces, and banned shortly thereafter. Haha.

 

[NoSmilez]

I am pretty sure I saw Kerr beat flabby version of josh in ADCC years ago.

 

[mkt]

Which was why it was so surprising to me how quickly and easily he got choked out by Gordon Ryan recently

A massively jacked 23-year old who does submission grappling full-time and has already had 54 matches....vs. a 40-year old, semi-retired MMA guy with a dough boy body and many other hobbies who probably doesn't train nearly as much as Ryan these days....I can't say it's a fair comparison.

 

[chubbman]

It's similar to Bruce Lee. There was no money in the U.S. for any kind of fighters besides boxers in those days. I don't blame them at all for acting in TV/movies (LeBell and Lee) and pro wrestling (LeBell). That paid a LOT more than teaching martial arts in the 1960s and doing an occasional judo or karate tournament (very rare in those days). Guys like Lee and LeBell studied martial arts as a serious passion/hobby and paid their bills through entertainment. Again, with no professional MMA, kickboxing or submission grappling scene, what would you expect them to do? And yes, I know LeBell had one fight. According to Wiki (which may not be completely true, but probably is partially), Gene was severely limited by the rules and circumstances:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_LeBell

ncouraged by Ed Parker,[4] LeBell accepted the challenge and travelled to Salt Lake City to meet Beck. To his surprise, he learned his opponent would not be Beck but a higher regarded boxer, Milo Savage, who had also a background in amateur wrestling. An agreement was reached for the match to last five rounds, each lasting three minutes. The boxer's side demanded a stipulation in which the smaller and "out-primed" Savage could use any type of punch, while the judoka could not kick, in the apparent belief LeBell was a karateka. An additional stipulation prevented LeBell from attempting tackles or takedowns under the waist.[4] In return, Savage offered to wear a judogi with special fingerless gloves. However, on the day of the match Savage appeared wearing a karategi instead, much tighter and harder to grab. The Savage camp claimed they did not know the difference.[6] Also, according to LeBell and other sources, Savage's gloves contained brass knuckles[5][6] and he had also greased up his gi with vaseline to make gripping it more difficult.[5] The unusual stipulations convinced LeBell the Savage camp, far from being ignorant about martial arts, had trained Savage in judo in order to defend against LeBell's throws.[5]

The match took place on December 2, 1963. The combatants were initially cautious, with LeBell being the first in pressing the action by attempting to throw Savage down. The boxer blocked the move, which aggravated an old shoulder injury of LeBell.[6] LeBell tried several techniques through the second and third rounds and was finally successful in taking Savage down, but Savage kept defending both standing and on the ground in a very technical manner, seemingly confirming LeBell's theory about his opponent's judo training.[6] Savage even attempted to sweep the judoka in one instance.[6][7] Nevertheless, LeBell got mount and found the opportunity to execute an armbar, but he opted instead to seek a choke, concluding that Savage wouldn't surrender to a broken arm.[8] Finally, he performed a left harai goshi in the fourth round and followed by locking a rear naked choke. Within seconds, Savage fell unconscious and LeBell was declared the winner.[6]

That’s some frank dux level bullshit right there

 

[Slick_36]

Notice that BJJ is spelled Ju Jutsu, not Jiu Jitsu. That's because it has nothing to with Jiu Jitsu. Judo did used to have an extensive ground and submission game. But we know from watching the UFC that the ground game is "gay" and "boring". So, they changed the rules to make it more entertaining on TV for the Olympics. Jiu Jitsu's ground game via Japanese expats in Brazil who taught old school Judo there that eventually became what we know today as BJJ.

All grappling sports evolve around their rulesets. You have freestyle wrestling evolve around takedown, collegiate wrestling focus on ground control, and they both descend from catch that was about submissions. Judo definitely had those with a ground based philosophy over takedowns, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the most successful offshoot of that approach. Shoot, BJJ is still evolving today, there's a lot of different philosophies and rulesets popping up right now. It's just the way combat sports go, especially grappling since it has the most variables.

 

[mkt]

I am pretty sure I saw Kerr beat flabby version of josh in ADCC years ago.

Josh was like 19 and had been a high school wrestler. He wasn't nearly in his prime as far as catch/grappling goes...and Kerr was roided so much he probably couldn't walk by a USADA office without getting busted. Another bad comparison.

Josh vs. Werdum or even Fedor or Mir would be a much better comparison than Kerr or Ryan. In that case it would be Josh vs. someone his age who's a full-time MMA fighter (not a full-time BJJ guy).

 

[mkt]

That’s some frank dux level bullshit right there

I said I don't believe all of Gene's account, but the rules were definitely not like the original (or current) UFC. This was like 1962. If you can post links with a different account of the rules please do--otherwise we're just dealing with assumptions.

 

[Slick_36]

That’s some frank dux level bullshit right there

Eh, all these guys were about saving face back then. Their livelihoods were based on their ability to sell their styles as the most effective so people would want to train under them. Without regulated places to compete, you got a lot of shady shit and accusations of shady shit. It's impossible to know what is true of these kinds of stories.

 

[MMAart]

Judo Gene LeBell was on Joe Rogan's show a while ago and he was talking about former pro wrestler and catch wrestler Karl Gotch. LeBell said that Gotch would love it when Jiu-Jitsu guys would get on their backs and stick their legs in the air for the guard because Gotch would just grab one of their legs and break it. LeBell said he never saw Gotch fail to break the leg of a Jiu-Jitsu guy who was using the guard position.

This shows the superiority of Catch Wrestling which unfortunately is almost a lost art. Look how few guys in MMA are catch wrestlers primarily. Guys like Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz before him would have absolutely dominated The UFC if they had been around and in their primes when The UFC began.

I must have missed it when catch wrestlers dominated the early days of MMA...

LeBell is full of Steven Seagal's shit.

 

[Slick_36]

Josh was like 19 and had been a high school wrestler. He wasn't nearly in his prime as far as catch/grappling goes...and Kerr was roided so much he probably couldn't walk by a USADA office without getting busted. Another bad comparison.

Josh vs. Werdum or even Fedor or Mir would be a much better comparison than Kerr or Ryan. In that case it would be Josh vs. someone his age who's a full-time MMA fighter (not a full-time BJJ guy).

Prime Kerr probably always beats prime Barnett. Catch is about the top game and pressure, Kerr is more likely to take him down and grind him down than the other way around. It's a terrible stylistic matchup for Barnett, Kerr specializes in Josh's weakness. Meanwhile Josh taps out Dean Lister who is a monster in BJJ. I would reckon Lister taps out Kerr if they both competed in their primes. Styles make fights, even in grappling.

 

[mkt]

There were definitely traveling grapplers at the time too. It wasn't like they were all isolated. You had cross style matchups frequently. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was influenced by judo and catch wrestlers touring in Brazil. It's how you have luta livre, the catch cousin to BJJ. There may not have been a lot of people working the guard at the time, especially those that travelled, but it's not impossible for Gotch to have come across guys that did. And even if he didn't, it probably would still have gone down like Gene said.

I know this happened in Brazil and most likely Japan. Are there many accounts in the U.S....besides guys like Gotch, LeBell, etc. training with each other? I know it happened some in the early 1900s. Teddy Roosevelt allegedly invited catch and judo guys to spar for him. That was Frank Gotch's generation, not Karl's. Karl's best days would be in the late 1940s and 1950s.

 

[NoSmilez]

Josh was like 19 and had been a high school wrestler. He wasn't nearly in his prime as far as catch/grappling goes...and Kerr was roided so much he probably couldn't walk by a USADA office without getting busted. Another bad comparison.

Josh vs. Werdum or even Fedor or Mir would be a much better comparison than Kerr or Ryan. In that case it would be Josh vs. someone his age who's a full-time MMA fighter (not a full-time BJJ guy).

I am pretty sure Josh was 22-23..... He also got choked out by Almeida that same ADCC if memory serves me correct. He won the UFC 1.5 years later. I bring up this point since he tested positive for that fight...

 

[mkt]

Prime Kerr probably always beats prime Barnett. Catch is about the top game and pressure, Kerr is more likely to take him down and grind him down than the other way around. It's a terrible stylistic matchup for Barnett, Kerr specializes in Josh's weakness. Meanwhile Josh taps out Dean Lister who is a monster in BJJ. I would reckon Lister taps out Kerr if they both competed in their primes. Styles make fights, even in grappling.

Yeah, I thought the same thing about Brock vs. Josh around the time of the Brock-Mir rematch. Both trained with Erik Paulson. No doubt Josh knows more about submissions than Kerr or Lesnar, but what can he do off his back against a massive guy who's a better wrestler? It would've been interesting.

 

[Slick_36]

I must have missed it when catch wrestlers dominated the early days of MMA...

LeBell is full of Steven Seagal's shit.

Who was supposed to represent Catch? I mean Ken Shamrock had plenty of success, and he was competing against pro wrestlers in Japan who were the last holdouts of competitive catch. And that was a revival of the sport if anything, eventually evolving in to MMA as we know it. Sakuraba dominated the Gracies, that was catch far past it's prime. At the time of Karl Gotch, the best catch guys would crush what BJJ had to offer.

 

[TSK]

Why does this random three year old thread keep getting resurrected?

 

[mkt]

I am pretty sure Josh was 22-23..... He also got choked out by Almeida that same ADCC if memory serves me correct. He won the UFC 1.5 years later. I bring up this point since he tested positive for that fight...

This is still not the prime Josh. I'd say that would be 2006-2012 or so...the one who fought Big Nog and went to the finals in the SF tournament. He had a lot more catch under his belt at the time and was still young enough to have good athleticism and mobility.

 

[Xuh]

I must have missed it when catch wrestlers dominated the early days of MMA...

LeBell is full of Steven Seagal's shit.

what are the early days of MMA to you?

they dominated shooto and pancrase, that's early MMA

then in the late 90s Sakuraba defeated the Gracies in PRIDE and Frank Shamrock was considered MMA's first ever 'all complete, god-tier fighter' in the UFC.

somewhere in the middle of all that the UFC was created as a marketing exercise for BJJ...