Judo better than BJJ for self defense, sort of

[ozyabbas]

I have trained BJJ for about 8 years and have only dabbled in judo.

I have been thinking about some of the ideas of BJJ and how they don't make much sense.


It seems to me that the most important skills to have would be to take the person down (which in its own right can incapacitate a person), incapacitate them on the ground (joint lock or choke) or pin them very quickly.

Street fights aren't without time limits and it seems the skills developed in judo are more suited to it than that of a lot of BJJ. How much time do we spend on things like guard passing which is essentially a useless skill in a street fight.

BJJ seems more suited to one on one NHB matches where it originally proved itself. but those conditions are very different from a street fight.

Anyway, the only reason this bothers me is when I hear a Gracie talk about how points, time limits, strategies have taken it away from its self defense routes. Were as I believe it never was that effective for self defense and that judo would be a far better alternative if that was your motivation to train.

 

[armbarforhire]

I think so.

You have superior takedowns, sweeps and trows wich will help you stay vertical, in case you need to escape, you can exit running from a rally bad situation, as opposed to pulling guard or just accepting any fight will go to the ground as Gracies usually stated, you will lose mobility even if you are winning, you are more vulnerable to other attacks like getting kicked in the ground by a third person.

And in case the fight goes to the ground judo still should be good enough to deal with almost anyone in a street fight unless you go up against a superior grappler (wich could happen even to a BJJ practitioner anyway).

 

[snakeybizz]

I have trained BJJ for about 8 years and have only dabbled in judo.

I have been thinking about some of the ideas of BJJ and how they don't make much sense.


It seems to me that the most important skills to have would be to take the person down (which in its own right can incapacitate a person), incapacitate them on the ground (joint lock or choke) or pin them very quickly.

Street fights aren't without time limits and it seems the skills developed in judo are more suited to it than that of a lot of BJJ. How much time do we spend on things like guard passing which is essentially a useless skill in a street fight.

BJJ seems more suited to one on one NHB matches where it originally proved itself. but those conditions are very different from a street fight.

Anyway, the only reason this bothers me is when I hear a Gracie talk about how points, time limits, strategies have taken it away from its self defense routes. Were as I believe it never was that effective for self defense and that judo would be a far better alternative if that was your motivation to train.

interesting topic that I was discussing with some of the guys I train with yesterday

my counter argument would be that the take down cannot be relied upon...now I assume in a self defence scenario then the guy will be untrained and so a takedown would be more realistic as opposed to fighting a trained fighter with 10 years of wrestling under his belt.

but if your particular athletic attributes are completely inferior to the attacker or individual you are trying to throw you are going to have a hard time I don't care what anyway one says...you could argue the same about BJJ but I think BJJ nullifies attributes more so then judo

you could have the most slick technique on the planet and weigh 60kg...how are you going to throw a 120kg guy who you just accidental knocked his pint over in a bar and now he wants to kill you.

I think where the judo would help however is not let that guy throw you about, strip his grips, avoid his rugby tackle takedowns and run away

 

[snakeybizz]

after re-reading your post I think the term "street fight" is very subjective, people have a much different interpretation to that term then I do...every single fight I have ever been in have been 1 on 1 fights where both groups of friends (mine and the opponents) have stood round and watched and eventually split up.

I'm sure its based on geography but where I happen to be from, weapons, gang attacks and murder are rare...its mainly just a disagreement that turns into a fight...or a bully looking for a fight

people are too smart to attack a guy 10 on 1 and potentially murder them (it happens, but people also choke to death on custard creams, it happens)

 

[Marbig]

I think in the above situation you would just go for a leg trip and use their momentum to your benefit.

That being said, I do think judo > bjj in most self defense scenarios. The most effective self defense method though is always awareness + common sense. In your hypothetical scenario, I would have just apologized and bought him another beer.

 

[snakeybizz]

I think in the above situation you would just go for a leg trip and use their momentum to your benefit.

That being said, I do think judo > bjj in most self defense scenarios. The most effective self defense method though is always awareness + common sense. In your hypothetical scenario, I would have just apologized and bought him another beer.

absolutely, the example I gave is just a one out of a million but it falls under the "alpha male/bully" type scenario that I have seen...another one was a guy asking me for an arm wrestle in a bar I said no so naturally he challenged me to a fight ... this genuinely happened, so I said i'd do the arm wrestle and that avoided the fight all together lol, you gotta show some discipline and not care about damaging your ego, I can quite easily clear my mind in these scenarios...my BJJ training has made me comfortable knowing if worst comes to worst I feel some what empowered because I know the guy can't kill me, I would just clinch up an survive against his steroid abusing onslaught till some1 split it up or I managed to get up... I will always try to take the communication/negotiation option if possible because thats what good human beings do I guess haha

but back to the judo or BJJ for self defence, I think arguments can be given for both...one things for sure they are both a legit method for self defences i.e they have proven effectiveness...its comforting to know I'm not wasting my time lol

 

[armbarforhire]

interesting topic that I was discussing with some of the guys I train with yesterday

my counter argument would be that the take down cannot be relied upon...now I assume in a self defence scenario then the guy will be untrained and so a takedown would be more realistic as opposed to fighting a trained fighter with 10 years of wrestling under his belt.

but if your particular athletic attributes are completely inferior to the attacker or individual you are trying to throw you are going to have a hard time I don't care what anyway one says...you could argue the same about BJJ but I think BJJ nullifies attributes more so then judo

you could have the most slick technique on the planet and weigh 60kg...how are you going to throw a 120kg guy who you just accidental knocked his pint over in a bar and now he wants to kill you.

I think where the judo would help however is not let that guy throw you about, strip his grips, avoid his rugby tackle takedowns and run away

Well if the judo guy is not taking him down neither will the BJJ guy, unless the bjj inmediately flops inviting a ground war, the 120 pound guy could easily just beat the crap out of a 60 kg bjj guy with a couple of haymakers on the feet.

The other thing is people think to much of street fights as winning or losing as opposed to self defense where just avoiding risks is 100% fine.

 

[snakeybizz]

Well if the judo guy is not taking him down neither will the BJJ guy, unless the bjj inmediately flops inviting a ground war, the 120 pound guy could easily just beat the crap out of a 60 kg bjj guy with a couple of haymakers on the feet.

The other thing is people think to much of street fights as winning or losing as opposed to self defense where just avoiding risks is 100% fine.

Some good points you make...I look at it as you look at it...Its not about winning but its defo about not losing imo...maybe you can't slay the 120kg giant but you can definitely survive him and not lose, maybe even win but thats not always an option

if you don't lose you can only win...

but back to the scenario...yes if the judo guy cannot take him down obviously an equally skilled BJJ cannot either but thats good...its only going to the ground if the 120kg guy decides....if it doesn't you declinch and survive/run....if he does you use you ground skills to clinch up stay safe, hopefully the bar staff will split it up and alls good, if not chill out clinch up, avoid damage, try get to your feet and survive

perhaps the judoka could avoid the ground all together, which would be a plus, but what if he can't...is he comfortable on his back? I've never actually trained in judo class per se but I am familiar with a lot of specific judo techniques for no gi as we learn wrestling and mma etc so I'm unaware of how much working from the back is trained in straight up judo

 

[Vitamin C]

I have felt that judo would be more effective than jiu jitsu for self defence for a long time now.

That, combined with having no stand up ability after nearly 4 years of training, leads me to think I will look into judo rather than jiu jitsu if I ever move cities.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Well if the judo guy is not taking him down neither will the BJJ guy, unless the bjj inmediately flops inviting a ground war, the 120 pound guy could easily just beat the crap out of a 60 kg bjj guy with a couple of haymakers on the feet.

Just pointing out that you're mixing up your units.

60 kilograms is just slightly heavier than 120 pounds.

 

[snakeybizz]

Just pointing out that you're mixing up your units.

60 kilograms is just slightly heavier than 120 pounds.

never knock a 120lb guys pint over in a bar bro ... just don't

 

[aus101]

If someone's a solid and athletic 120 kilos you are up against a legit heavyweight and should run. Most guys over 225 are fat and slow, if you are skilled you should easily be able to use lateral movement to get their back (if you are 60 kilos though you should probably not mess with anyone over 85 lol).

 

[ozyabbas]

The idea of not seeing a street fight as not winning or losing is an important one. Its also correct to think that many times the judoka may not be able to take the person down if there is a ridiculous weight and strength difference.

Then it would be about minimising damage on the floor and being able to get back to your feet and run or someone splits it up.

 

[pinoy wrestler]

I believe you. My friend who was a judo varsity athlete of our university was held up with a knife. He got hold of the armed wrist and foot-swept the criminal, who fell down and was soon arrested. I'm sure he wouldn't jump to guard in that situation -- even if he had a good guard game.

 

[uppercutbus]

 

[Einarr]

Osoto Gari is the ultimate defense against tiny Asian women.

 

[ThatBJJGuy]

I really wish there was a "self defense" forum because its so boring hearing about what is better for a street fight...when majority of us here cross train in many different arts for other reasons. not all of us get into to street fights everyday. me myself I havent in my life and when it did come close to one i walked away.

to answer the TS question...yes judo is really effective

 

[Rubberman1]

bjj beats judo so no

 

[jujijimmy]

Drunks with no take down defense who aren't expecting the takedown aren't that hard to throw. A ko ouchi or o ouchi will normally be enough. Then you can run away or give them some pain.

 

[Deltafarce]

Drunks with no take down defense who aren't expecting the takedown aren't that hard to throw. A ko ouchi or o ouchi will normally be enough. Then you can run away or give them some pain.

Exactly as long as you have a couple takedowns available you should be good.

Most takedowns aren't going to stop the fight the guy might bounce off the concrete but he generally isn't just going to give up , kinda like a drunk in a car accident.

Why not arm drag to rnc that will stop someone quicker than anything