Rewatch Jon Jones vs Dominick Reyes

[StonedLemur]

And Reyes did exactly that sir.

 

[NoSmilez]

Jones won the fight. Reyes is a dumbass that took off the 5th round for some reason

 

[Luffy]

As we agreed upon prior, Reyes 1, & jones 4&5 are not disputable. The question is R2 & 3, & I spent way more time watching 2 than I intended to spend today.. lol... but here'z what I found.

Remember Texas had a high value in their judging for aggression. which holding the center of the octagon was valued highly & needs to be counted. you countered that Reyes did enough aggressive striking from the outside to make up for him giving up the center... but upon review, I disagree.

• R2 & R3 was close enough that it's not a robbery either way. Under Texas rools, I give both rounds to Jones. (the 2nd being the closer of the 2) but I'd give both to Reyes under the Unified rools.

I ended up watching R2 a few times, so here's my notes -

Spoiler: R2 breakdown

Reyes clearly won teh first minute even under Texas rools for that super aggressive "attempt" at the end of teh 1st minute. That flurry where he was chasing jon, looked more impressive than it had actual "strikes landed", (not sure he landed any of them) but he does get a lot of credit in Texas for the aggression. However, he was on his heals most of that first minute & only did that in about 15 seconds, & then took a step off of that gas after the first minute & spent a lot of time dancing around the outside (recovering) which negated that aggressive advantage & I being generous to Reyes for that one 15 second burst... I had "aggression" scored about even by mid round despite that extreme display. (note: I don't like the texas aggression scoring & it's so subjective, but I can see how that could be the case.)

There-after, they both got solid strikes & maybe Reyes was slightly ahead on that front, but Jon was pulling ahead by holding the center. An argument could be made that Reyes stole that round at the very end with a couple of nice strikes. They weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty solid... and maybe that could be said to negate his dancing on the outside. I'd say that it was close enough that there was no robbery either way.

This is one of those rounds that would be best to review with slow motion & rewind, so to try & see exactly what landed & what didn't. So much happened that was hard to tell. In addition to little stuff, we do know Reyes landed 2 hard leg kicks & a good hook to the mellon in the last minute while Jones landed a good body kick and maybe a melon shot, but it's hard to say.

It was close, but this thing about how Texas weighs "owning the center" was very clearly won by Jones, & Reyes didn't have enough aggression throughout the round nor heavy strikes in order to negate that. (imo) It was close though, even under Texas rools.

Under Unified rools though, I'd give that round to Reyes. Under Texas roolz, I give it Jones.

Such fun sorting through this!

R3 - was more of the same as 2, except that Reyes didn't have a major meaningful burst of aggression in the 3rd like he did in the 2nd. Meanwhile, in addition to holding the center... jones had the stronger rallies for aggression with his TD attempts which put Reyes on full defense... which is a big no no in Texas. "no can defense."

Again, I'd give the nod to Reyes for the stronger strikes under the unified rools where jon's TD attempts & holding the center would count for 0... but in Texas, aggression meanz a lot & Reyes didn't outstrike Jon by enough of a margin for this to be considered a robbery.

Teh 3rd was much clearer regarding aggression for Jon than the 2nd imo. Both rounds were close enough in Texas that there was no robberry. I agree it's a dated rool-set, but it is the roolset they fought under.

As ridiculous as this seems, we actually see this same dynamic happening with judges under the Unified Rools. WAY TOO OFTEN... we see wrestlers holding someone down without doing a fooking thing with it, & they end up winning a round that they were clearly out struck in.

This is no more of a robbery than those countless examples... except that these other modern day examples were supposed to be judged under a rool-set that doesn't count "aggression." it's been an endless source of stress for me watching this happen, so now that we're discussing an event that actually is commissioned to score "aggressiveness..." it shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

Just imagine all that time where reyes was on the outside moving, as if he was laying on his back. For sure a guy can outstrike the other off his back... but somehow most judges will still give the nod to the asshole laying on top not doing jack shit. This is the same conversation, except that jones actually was returning fire. It was close... for sure, but it wasn't so close that the "aggression" was negated.

Fook me, I spent way more time on this than I intended, but there it is.

Very nice breakdown. Honestly, as pointed above, watching it yet again, round 2 and 3 were somewhat tough. I had watched it a couple weeks ago and already had the impression that round 2 was way closer than I had imagined. But seeing it again, I honestly see it as closer still, and round 3, viewing again, had Reyes doing better than he did in round 2 imo, although signs of fatigue were already more visible. Hmmm... I think Reyes won the 3rd one looking closely again imo. I thought it was even, but still, Jones seemed hesitant sometimes and didn't land that much. It seems he was controlling a little where to have the fight, but seemed awfully hesitant in trying combos and attacking. The 2nd round seemed more like a toss a coin imo. Gonna rewatch in slow motion lol

 

[Reach4theSky]

And Reyes did exactly that sir.

Meh, it was a pretty close fight, I would’ve probably gave the decision to Reyes had it been a regular fight. But for the belt against unbeaten Jones, I don’t feel he did enough..

Just my opinion, respectfully as always sir!

 

[StonedLemur]

Meh, it was a pretty close fight, I would’ve probably gave the decision to Reyes had it been a regular fight. But for the belt against unbeaten Jones, I don’t feel he did enough..

Just my opinion, respectfully as always sir!

If I was the only one to think Reyes won the first 3 rounds then I would be more inclined to agree to be honest.

Reyes taking the first 3 rounds meant Jon needed two 10-8 rounds in the 4th and 5th to win, and he didn't get a single 10-8 round in the 4th or 5th.

Im not on the train of thought that you have to finish or beat the champ in the 5th...if that was the case why even have the scoring system?

I know you're not being a douche about it and neither am I sir.
I just see the first 3 rounds as the winner because Jon needed to do something extraordinary in the 4th and 5th and didn't tbf.

 

[StonedLemur]

Jones won the fight. Reyes is a dumbass that took off the 5th round for some reason

Jon lost the first 3 rounds...how does him winning the last 2 rounds negate that without two 10-8 rounds?

 

[NoSmilez]

Jon lost the first 3 rounds...how does him winning the last 2 rounds negate that without two 10-8 rounds?

The issue is that none of the judges gave Reyes all the first 3 rounds. He took off the 5th in a close fight

 

[nonoob]

Jon lost the first 3 rounds...how does him winning the last 2 rounds negate that without two 10-8 rounds?

Dana's judges made it reality, and he pays ALL of the bills.​

Reyes 1,2,3. And quite a small guy Reyes. Imagine what Poatan does to JJ.

Leave the LHW champion out of this. EVERY HW fighter Jon has cowardly ducked for 10 full years SHOULD be the ONLY discussion of his "legacy".

 

[Luffy]

Tbh, JJ looked incredibly hesitant on that fight. Mainly in the 4th and 5th rounds when Reyes was visibly fatigued and even wobbling a little, not even throwing power punches anymore, JJ, who looked fresh, didn't attempt any high volume strike on Reyes... He seemed to be satisfied with controlling where Reyes would be at, and then would land leg kicks and solid kicks to the body, some elbows, good boxing strikes... But didn't go in for the pressure and high volume strikes. His first fight vs Gus for example... He was way more hurt, since Gus got in way harder and well connected punches than Reyes, and even then in the 5th round with 2 bloody eyes and more fatigued, he would throw a lot of head kicks, went for the flying knee with elbow... Same thing in the previous fight vs Tiago Santos. Tiago hurt his knee and there were a couple instances where he took some step backs to the ropes due to his knee injury and JJ waited and only pressured in the rope with faits, didn't do any high volume striking.

In an interview JJ had said he saw Reyes was giving him a run for his moneys and the look Reyes had in his eyes, that hungriness for winning that Reyes had... And that he thought "hey, you have had a great career, have done many remarkable things on this sport, it's ok if you end up coming up short on this one... Just don't let him knock you out, but it's ok to come a little short on this one" and Jones said that as a "it's a tough decision, to give up on yourself and at the same time there was that voice in the back of my head like fuck it, I can't lose".

I think most would see as a kind of justification for it being so close to the point it was questionable... And it could be... But at the same time, coupled with his glaring lack of more pressure and hesitance, I have the impression JJ held back a little of what he could really do, kinda like, that motivation to do everything possible to win... As if the undefeated, everyone looking to beat him and all was already getting a little tiresome and not as engaging as it once was. Perhaps, conspiracy theory ofc, he saw that making it a close fight to the point he could lose but kinda 50/50 would be a good way to end up taking away the undefeated burden in a sense of a not domination fight at all, more like fights neither fighter hurt the other one much and weren't that much appealing. He seems to have recovered the old hunger in the HW division, initially at least, but I think that with his injury, he just saw that even though he is 36, coming out of an injure training in a body shape he was never used to with already a closing on 40s... Isn't a smart thing to do. There should be a time to stop. I believe he had the drive to defend his title trying to prove as a potential HW goat as well but his injury came as a red flag that his body isn't the same.

Still tho, I believe he'll fight once more after Stipe. And I think it likely will end up being Aspinall. Henry Cejudo said in an interview that JJ will eventually get to face these young generation running their mouth and prove again, he is just not giving it much fuel yet. Eh, I think Henry Cejudo is right.

 

[Captain Herb]

The issue is that none of the judges gave Reyes all the first 3 rounds.

Yes, we're aware that the judging was the problem here

 

[NoSmilez]

Yes, we're aware that the judging was the problem here

Reyes taking the 5th round off didn’t help his cause.

 

[Captain Herb]

Reyes taking the 5th round off didn’t help his cause.

It shouldn't have mattered with judges who halfway knew what they were doing

 

[RonDante]

As we agreed upon prior, Reyes 1, & jones 4&5 are not disputable. The question is R2 & 3, & I spent way more time watching 2 than I intended to spend today.. lol... but here'z what I found.

Remember Texas had a high value in their judging for aggression. which holding the center of the octagon was valued highly & needs to be counted. you countered that Reyes did enough aggressive striking from the outside to make up for him giving up the center... but upon review, I disagree.

• R2 & R3 was close enough that it's not a robbery either way. Under Texas rools, I give both rounds to Jones. (the 2nd being the closer of the 2) but I'd give both to Reyes under the Unified rools.

I ended up watching R2 a few times, so here's my notes -

Spoiler: R2 breakdown

Reyes clearly won teh first minute even under Texas rools for that super aggressive "attempt" at the end of teh 1st minute. That flurry where he was chasing jon, looked more impressive than it had actual "strikes landed", (not sure he landed any of them) but he does get a lot of credit in Texas for the aggression. However, he was on his heals most of that first minute & only did that in about 15 seconds, & then took a step off of that gas after the first minute & spent a lot of time dancing around the outside (recovering) which negated that aggressive advantage & I being generous to Reyes for that one 15 second burst... I had "aggression" scored about even by mid round despite that extreme display. (note: I don't like the texas aggression scoring & it's so subjective, but I can see how that could be the case.)

There-after, they both got solid strikes & maybe Reyes was slightly ahead on that front, but Jon was pulling ahead by holding the center. An argument could be made that Reyes stole that round at the very end with a couple of nice strikes. They weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty solid... and maybe that could be said to negate his dancing on the outside. I'd say that it was close enough that there was no robbery either way.

This is one of those rounds that would be best to review with slow motion & rewind, so to try & see exactly what landed & what didn't. So much happened that was hard to tell. In addition to little stuff, we do know Reyes landed 2 hard leg kicks & a good hook to the mellon in the last minute while Jones landed a good body kick and maybe a melon shot, but it's hard to say.

It was close, but this thing about how Texas weighs "owning the center" was very clearly won by Jones, & Reyes didn't have enough aggression throughout the round nor heavy strikes in order to negate that. (imo) It was close though, even under Texas rools.

Under Unified rools though, I'd give that round to Reyes. Under Texas roolz, I give it Jones.

Such fun sorting through this!

R3 - was more of the same as 2, except that Reyes didn't have a major meaningful burst of aggression in the 3rd like he did in the 2nd. Meanwhile, in addition to holding the center... jones had the stronger rallies for aggression with his TD attempts which put Reyes on full defense... which is a big no no in Texas. "no can defense."

Again, I'd give the nod to Reyes for the stronger strikes under the unified rools where jon's TD attempts & holding the center would count for 0... but in Texas, aggression meanz a lot & Reyes didn't outstrike Jon by enough of a margin for this to be considered a robbery.

Teh 3rd was much clearer regarding aggression for Jon than the 2nd imo. Both rounds were close enough in Texas that there was no robberry. I agree it's a dated rool-set, but it is the roolset they fought under.

As ridiculous as this seems, we actually see this same dynamic happening with judges under the Unified Rools. WAY TOO OFTEN... we see wrestlers holding someone down without doing a fooking thing with it, & they end up winning a round that they were clearly out struck in.

This is no more of a robbery than those countless examples... except that these other modern day examples were supposed to be judged under a rool-set that doesn't count "aggression." it's been an endless source of stress for me watching this happen, so now that we're discussing an event that actually is commissioned to score "aggressiveness..." it shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

Just imagine all that time where reyes was on the outside moving, as if he was laying on his back. For sure a guy can outstrike the other off his back... but somehow most judges will still give the nod to the asshole laying on top not doing jack shit. This is the same conversation, except that jones actually was returning fire. It was close... for sure, but it wasn't so close that the "aggression" was negated.

Fook me, I spent way more time on this than I intended, but there it is.

Defense is also included in the scoring of Texas. And it’s not aggression, it’s effective aggression. If jones didn’t achieve anything with his takedown attempts, then they don’t get scored. Reyes defending the takedowns would be scored. And keeping the fight on the feet would be a part of fighting area control, he is determining where the fight takes place

AND ALSO, the rules say the judges must evaluate the effective striking, effective grappling, effective aggression, fighting area control, and defense. That means the judges need to look at what happened in the round to see what was most impactful. Reyes landing more shots and stopping jones takedowns is more impactful than jones moving forward

There is no way to give jones the 3rd round

 

[Vehap1]

Jon is just hype
Steroids, cheating, gifted dec, cherry-picking

 

[Luffy]

While Reyes landed more strikes, their effectiveness might be questioned due to the lack of visible impact they had on Jones... Most of them were body shots, straight left to the body that didn't appear to have a visible impact and didn't make JJ take steps back, rather, he kept on his pressure. Jones had the ability to defend against most of Reyes' attempted significant strikes... The high kick which was emphasized in the comments during the fight was actually defended by JJ, it didn't hit his head at all. Many leg kicks were checked as well. Jones' composure by not getting affected by the body shots as he kept moving forwards and defending most of Reyes' attempted more dangerous strikes, as well as, while hitting less, still arguably being more effective when landing... May as well be effective aggression. Body shots can mess up the opponent during the fight or accumulate damage over time, but many times they don't have the immediate visible impact that head strikes do. Since those body shots didn't visibly affect Jones or change the momentum of the fight, their scoring might be somewhat not taken heavily into account compared to more visibly impactful strikes...

Jon Jones seemed constantly moving towards Reyes in most rounds and Reyes, while hitting more, a lot of those strikes seemed more like trying to keep Jon Jones away from the pressure, not many meaningful strikes that had visible effects. He seemed to be constantly moving towards JJ left when JJ cornered him and then landing the body strikes to keep Jone from getting too close. Idk... The rounds Reyes won seemed to me less convincing than the ones JJ won despite JJ slacking in throwing many combinations. JJ didn't lose his composure and was figuring out the fight... Reyes seemed tired and wobbling a little after getting some hard kicks in, JJ even opened his arms twice since Reyes was constantly circling outside Jones and not engaging much. Reyes won the 3rd round. 2nd one seemed the closer one last time I watched, today. I think Reyes may have done slightly better in that round, but I wouldn't be puzzled if someone gave it to JJ. I just think that JJ's win there was legitimate. I don't agree with 49-46 tbh. That's way too much ofc. But I could see UD with 3 48-47. I could see it as a draw too... I could see majority or split decision for both... Same way I also could see UD for Reyes with 48-47 from the 3 judges. I just think whoever won there wouldn't be unfair. Being totally honest here and leaving any bias aside.

But comment above saying JJ is a hype fighter is definitely a joke... Someone who has been the champion since he was 23 I guess? (That'd make 13 years) and whose most fighters who have given their opinions, list him as #1. Khabib did list him as the GOAT tied with Fedor, as well... Chimaev did the same. DC acknowledged in the 2nd him that JJ did that with his skills... Same DC who competed in HW and defeated Stipe once and had never lost a round until fighting Jones. It's totally understandable not liking him, ofc it is, but that he's one of the best ever, if not the best ever in mma... That goes without saying imo.

 

[JBJ was here]

Not gonna echo what many have said already. Fight comes down to how you score that 3rd round. Results are what they are but I think the fight was a lot closer than either side would care to admit. Belt could have easily changed hands that nights

Jones' defense in the first two rounds was phenomenal, even if he was off to a slow start on offense. Reyes whiffed a fair majority of the time and the shots that "landed" were 95% grazing shots that did no damage.

Being able to redirect a shot just enough rather than pushing it all the way over is an incredibly useful striking defense that gives you the most options for a follow-up action. A grazing shot mostly means that the striker ended up out of position while the defender maybe didn't. When 40% of your strikes are near misses or grazes with barely any solid shots landing, you're generally losing unless that solid shot or two was a KO.

 

[Brendan The Hybrid Schaub]

I'm gonna rewatch this but I honestly think there is an argument for 4-1 reyes on damage

 

[MindGamingMantis]

Jones won rounds 2, 4, and 5. + you gotta factor in the different judging criteria in that state.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

Jones' defense in the first two rounds was phenomenal, even if he was off to a slow start on offense. Reyes whiffed a fair majority of the time and the shots that "landed" were 95% grazing shots that did no damage.

Being able to redirect a shot just enough rather than pushing it all the way over is an incredibly useful striking defense that gives you the most options for a follow-up action. A grazing shot mostly means that the striker ended up out of position while the defender maybe didn't. When 40% of your strikes are near misses or grazes with barely any solid shots landing, you're generally losing unless that solid shot or two was a KO.

I disagree with most being grazing shot and no damage being done. That is a wild exaggeration. Jon defended very well especially with how insanely aggressive Reyes was. However, Reyes still convincingly won those rounds, landed some impressive shots, and controlled the pace convincingly. It was not the beatdown some try to claim but Reyes had good success and won those rounds.

From a technical standpoint, I do agree with the importance of defense and being able to avoid or minimize damage by those close margins. However, even grazing shots when placed right can wear down on you. This is especially true when these shots are in high quantities. It was a very technical display by Jon but equally impressive for Reyes.

The two of them ended up being a very interesting stylistic match up. Regardless of who won in the end, it is undeniable that Jon had a very hard time that night. He adjusted very well because he's so technical and Reyes lacked the necessary championship experience.

 

[StonedLemur]

The issue is that none of the judges gave Reyes all the first 3 rounds. He took off the 5th in a close fight

Anyone with eyes and no bias can see Reyes won the first 3 though.