Jon Bones Jones: Judo or Greco-Roman?

[KarateFist]

Wait............ Are Judo guys like BJJ guys in saying that if it ain't in a Gi it ain't BJJ or Judo?


Oh and Jones is a grappler.:icon_neut A wrestling one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:icon_lol:

There are many more Judo guys that are adamant that doing Judo without a Gi is not Judo, this view is much much more common than in BJJ

 

[WrestlingJudo]

No you guys are right, watching judo videos supersedes Jones' prior knowledge from wrestling . I am not saying he didn't gain different insight or perspective from doing so but how can you possibly say "omg hes doing judo now".

 

[JudokaUK]

1. This thread is 2 years old and was necro-ed.

2.Seriously, who cares?

 

[Uchi Mata]

1. This thread is 2 years old and was necro-ed.

2.Seriously, who cares?

American Judoka are very sensitive that we are, in general, much worse at grappling than American wrestlers. Wrestling has so much here in the states, can't you just give us Bones's leg sweeping throws? Is that asking so much?

You'd have to be here and have high school wrestlers come into Judo clubs and no one being able to throw them but black belts. Then you realize they've been grappling competitively year round for 10-12 years, often 5-6 days a week during season. It can get really demoralizing. And it's not like there's ever been a true Judo based UFC champ...Fedor is the closest thing to a champ who's grappling is primarily Judo/Sambo, but even he mostly knocked people out.

Damn it's hard to be an American Judo player.

 

[Rod1]

this part you lost me...what do you mean you can only be pushed strongly? wrestling stance i wouldnt say is "leaning weight forward"...rather lowering your center of gravity...

There is a difference between leaning forward and putting your weight on the lead leg.

Unless you mean lowering your center of gravity and putting your weight 50/50 which is useless both in judo and wrestling.

try this exercise, put yourself in a wrestling position then have someone push you to eight directions to the sides, back front and corner back and front.

You will see that the corner of the back leg to the front is hard to stop, then as you shift to make up for the unbalance, then stop at that position and retry again, you will see again that your position lacks balance in other angles (depending on how you reacted).

Basically the reason why judokas are straight is because mobility is far more important when people have handles to pull and lift you.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I think the argument can be summed up here.

Jones said he saw the techinques watching judo videos.

That makes sense because there are a lot of American Wrestling coaches at the HS and club level who ignore and look down on throws so he very possibly could have learned those moves wacthing judo videos.

There you go judo

Would Jones have been able to learn and perform those techniques so effectively without the gi without his extensive wrestling background that taught him how to "grip", position and use leverage without the gi?

There you go wrestling.

Problem solved.

He learned from both arts and it worked.

Does anyone know why wrestlers have a move called the *** Whizzer?

Also I think one of the reasons Russia is so great at wrestling and always has been is because they are good at both wrestling and Judo and they implement judo moves that work in wrestling.

It is cross training and it works well

Steve Mocco was a very good US Judoka in America

 

[Ryo]

American Judoka are very sensitive that we are, in general, much worse at grappling than American wrestlers. Wrestling has so much here in the states, can't you just give us Bones's leg sweeping throws? Is that asking so much?

You'd have to be here and have high school wrestlers come into Judo clubs and no one being able to throw them but black belts. Then you realize they've been grappling competitively year round for 10-12 years, often 5-6 days a week during season. It can get really demoralizing. And it's not like there's ever been a true Judo based UFC champ...Fedor is the closest thing to a champ who's grappling is primarily Judo/Sambo, but even he mostly knocked people out.

Damn it's hard to be an American Judo player.

It disturbs me how little you understand about the many Judoka competing in MMA. What exactly does a fighter in MMA have to do to be considered a Judoka by you? I mean i would really like to know?

 

[PolishHeadlock]

It disturbs me how little you understand about the many Judoka competing in MMA. What exactly does a fighter in MMA have to do to be considered a Judoka by you? I mean i would really like to know?

I hear you. In Pride Fedor rarely knocked people out. He used takedowns and GnP for most of his big fights. He started KOing people post Pride.

I am as big of a wrestling fan as anyone but people are influenced by both arts and many similar techniques are used in both arts and modified for gi and no gi.

F12 is usually pretty good at getting past bickering between X style is better than Y style.

Let's keep that tradition

 

[jclaudevandamme]

About Fedor:

Against Schilt he first took him down by pulling both to the floor backwards and turned mid-motion (Wrestling) and the second time it was a greco-esque takedown to the side.
Against Heath Herring, the first was a leg-catch followed by a side sweep (De Ashi Barai-like) that I do accept as a Judo takedown but the next one was something near a back supplex.
Against Nogueira (first) he got him down by just pushing to the ropes first, the second was a failed guard pull by Nogueira, the third was a outside trip that would have been a Ko Soto Gari if it was a sweep.

His takedowns are more wrestling oriented than Judo oriented so I see him as a Sambo guy that also trained lots of Judo, not as a Judoka.

 

[Uchi Mata]

It disturbs me how little you understand about the many Judoka competing in MMA. What exactly does a fighter in MMA have to do to be considered a Judoka by you? I mean i would really like to know?

It disturbs me when people respond to posts in a condescending manner. I generally consider MMA fighters Judoka if that's their primary grappling background, and if they actively use Judo in the cage. Karo, Akiyama, Rousey, these are MMA Judoka. Guys who wrestled for 20 years and picked up a few Judo throws are not Judo based fighters. Guys who are primarily catch wrestlers but did Judo at various points in time (this applies mostly to Japanese fighters) I don't consider to be Judo based MMA fighters. And my point, if you go back and actually read what I wrote, is not that there aren't any but that they've never been champions. Hector Lombard doesn't count until he manages to do something in the UFC. Here's the complete list of UFC titleholders since the inception of the organization:

List of UFC champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Show me all the Judo guys you apparently see. Because as much as I love Judo and have practiced it and given thousands of hours on the mat and think it's a great martial art, I don't see any.

And just for good measure:

List of Pride Fighting Championships champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other than arguably Fedor, there aren't any Judo based champs here either.

 

[Ryo]

It disturbs me when people respond to posts in a condescending manner. I generally consider MMA fighters Judoka if that's their primary grappling background, and if they actively use Judo in the cage. Karo, Akiyama, Rousey, these are MMA Judoka. Guys who wrestled for 20 years and picked up a few Judo throws are not Judo based fighters. Guys who are primarily catch wrestlers but did Judo at various points in time (this applies mostly to Japanese fighters) I don't consider to be Judo based MMA fighters. And my point, if you go back and actually read what I wrote, is not that there aren't any but that they've never been champions. Hector Lombard doesn't count until he manages to do something in the UFC. Here's the complete list of UFC titleholders since the inception of the organization:

List of UFC champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Show me all the Judo guys you apparently see. Because as much as I love Judo and have practiced it and given thousands of hours on the mat and think it's a great martial art, I don't see any.

And just for good measure:

List of Pride Fighting Championships champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other than arguably Fedor, there aren't any Judo based champs here either.

I dont really care about who's champion at all. Your applying way to high standards to Judo guys. Most BJJ guys and wrestlers will never be champions at the highest levels of MMA. You say the majority of Japanese fighters? Are you kidding me? How can you say that. The majority of Japanese fighter "DO" have strong Judo backgrounds. Why would you not consider a guy like Yushin Okami to be a Judoka as well? You realize he was a student of Yoshinori Nishi who was a student of a Masahiko Kimura? Caol Uno was a student as well as K-Taro Nakamura. These were all great fighters and were certainly champions at one point. Yushin is still one of the greatest Middleweights on the planet and he can beat most people not named Anderson Silva. What about Dong Hyun Kim? He is certainly a top level fighter? He ragdolled my boy Nate Diaz all over the mat. Do you really not consider him a Judoka? He's a 4th dan and practiced Judo at Yong-In university which has consistently produced world level Judoka.

Hayato Sakurai is one of the greatest fighters of all time in his prime and he was a strong Judoka in college. Same with Shinya Aoki. Both of these guys have had more high level training in Judo then most Judoka will ever see in America. What about Rick Hawn. He's tearing shit up in Bellator. He's a Judo Olympian and a student of Jimmy Pedro. Why would he be considered anything other then a Judoka? What about Megumi Fuji and Satoko Shinashi if your interested in women's Judo champs.

What discounts a guy like Paulo Filho from being considered a Judoka? He was a Jr. world champion at one point. I realize that he is a BJJ guy, but so is Jake Shields... but you dont hear people claim that Jake not also a wrestler. What about Sanae Kikuta? He was a highschool Judo champion who went on to be a student of Toshihiko Koga. How much more high level Judo training can you get? He beat Saulo Ribiero to win the 2001 ADCC -88 KG weight class. He was also light heavyweight champion in Pancrase. I know he's a black belt in BJJ but he's had just as much Judo training if not more. Kazuo Misaki? Beat Dan Henderson, Paul Daley, alot of other good fighters. Plenty of Judo for that guy. I could name a ton more of Japanese guys especially. But I hope you get my point. We cant discount some of these great fighters just because they didnt fight in the UFC or because they were not champion in that org. Thats kindof a case of "what have you done for me lately"

I mean Hector Lombard is not champion right now but he's been absolutely wrecking people and hasnt lost a fight in years. Its a very good possibility he could be champion. He has all the tools. But even if he doesnt have what it takes to beat Anderson (no other BJJ guy or wrestler does either) he is still an elite top level fighter in his division. Thats all you can ask for.

Everybody crosstrains in other arts, but that shouldnt mean you are not a Judoka if you do. If that were the case we would have no "wrestlers" or BJJ guys as well.

 

[RJ Green]

:icon_twis devil's advocate :icon_twis

Ronda's the champ. all by Judo throws into armbars. probably will be for a while. one martial arts style is dominating an entire gender.

 

[RJ Green]

and to be fair, that lady ^ plays Judo like her mom, where the throwing part isn't quite as important as the part where you pull the limbs off, IJF be damned. you haven't seen a Judo player like that in MMA, save for maybe Johny Hendricks or Rick Hawk, who still like to punch.

BJJ used to be the finishing art, but everybody's drilled so damn much defense that it usually doesn't happen without a significant skill dichotomy.

Rasslin' still ends up in either a 15-minute cage-hump-a-thon (Mac Danzig fights) or taking the dominant position and punching someone in the face.

I guess what I'm saying is that we haven't seen a Judo guy transition into MMA who can just dodge/take punches, throw into advantageous position, and hit the submission. At least not the same way Ronda has done with the women's divisions.

 

[Ryo]

True, but how many Jiu-Jitsu guys do you see doing that at the highest levels?

 

[Title Fight Productions]

I dont really care about who's champion at all.

Well then don't quote him and HIGHTLIGHT the part about UFC Champs!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ryo]

Obviously you missed the point. Obviously he wasnt just talking about the UFC or he wouldnt have included Fedor....

 

[Rod1]

About Fedor:

Against Schilt he first took him down by pulling both to the floor backwards and turned mid-motion (Wrestling) and the second time it was a greco-esque takedown to the side.
Against Heath Herring, the first was a leg-catch followed by a side sweep (De Ashi Barai-like) that I do accept as a Judo takedown but the next one was something near a back supplex.
Against Nogueira (first) he got him down by just pushing to the ropes first, the second was a failed guard pull by Nogueira, the third was a outside trip that would have been a Ko Soto Gari if it was a sweep.

His takedowns are more wrestling oriented than Judo oriented so I see him as a Sambo guy that also trained lots of Judo, not as a Judoka.

lol? Fedor was a "career" judoka before he left judo for MMA.

Also what's judo now? seoi, uchimata or osotogari now?

All of Fedor's throws except maybe the double leg he did against Rogers have the judo trademark, not only the throws but the transitions between them too.

 

[nefti]

and to be fair, that lady ^ plays Judo like her mom, where the throwing part isn't quite as important as the part where you pull the limbs off, IJF be damned. you haven't seen a Judo player like that in MMA, save for maybe Johny Hendricks or Rick Hawk, who still like to punch.

BJJ used to be the finishing art, but everybody's drilled so damn much defense that it usually doesn't happen without a significant skill dichotomy.

I think a big part of it is because women's mma just doesn't have the depth of athelete that mens do. So an skilled athletic phenom like Ronda dominates.

 

[jclaudevandamme]

lol? Fedor was a "career" judoka before he left judo for MMA.

Also what's judo now? seoi, uchimata or osotogari now?

All of Fedor's throws except maybe the double leg he did against Rogers have the judo trademark, not only the throws but the transitions between them too.

You can easily say that the same throws have a Sambo trademark too, but the difference is that in Sambo not only people are actually allowed to use the set-ups that Fedor use to them like the bear hug to Ko Soto Gake/Outside Leg Trip.

Am I saying that this isn't Judo? I am not. Am I saying that this isn't the Olympic Judo Fedor trained in? Yes. He would not have learned how to perform it for MMA in Judo.

 

[RJ Green]

I think a big part of it is because women's mma just doesn't have the depth of athelete that mens do. So an skilled athletic phenom like Ronda dominates.

i think it's the striking threat in the men's division that creates that separation. plus, your best Judo guys - Hendricks, Akiyama, Fedor, Jones, etc. - are pretty damn good strikers to begin with.

you've gotta appreciate Ronda's no-fucking-around approach though. girl's gotta stay pretty...