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After all the hype I was left a bit disappointed. I think I was expecting a bit more of a gangster type film. Dont get me wrong the movie was good, just not what I was expecting. I will be rewatching it soon to give a better opinion.
I almost think a sequel would be the best thing to happen at this point. The story needs a continuation to show Arthur’s rise in Gotham and highlighting that he is actually capable and competent when it comes to his evil deeds. They could knock it out of the park if done right.
Maybe it can have Harvey Dent as the protagonist since Bruce is still too young? Or that might be a little too Dark Knight-ish.
I almost think a sequel would be the best thing to happen at this point. The story needs a continuation to show Arthur’s rise in Gotham and highlighting that he is actually capable and competent when it comes to his evil deeds. They could knock it out of the park if done right.
Maybe it can have Harvey Dent as the protagonist since Bruce is still too young? Or that might be a little too Dark Knight-ish.
He has plenty of time over the next couple decades to become a criminal mastermind as Bruce grows up.
In DK Joker lifting that veneer on society is his mission but that’s not a motive. A motive would be WHY he is obsessed to the point of sacrificing himself to lift the veneer. You can literally watch the moment the writers gave up developing a motive for it when they have Alfred say “fuck it, this guy just likes watching the world burn. Don’t ask anymore about it audience . He’s just super edgy.” New Joker has a clear reason to be obsessed with ruining the Waynes/their system that protects people like them but not him. New Joker has a motive for having a sick love/hate relationship with his brother Bruce where he won’t kill him.
Dark Knight Joker was well acted, but otherwise puddle deep character and nothing about him made sense thus they didn’t even try to explain anything about his motives or develop the character. Just a smart criminal who plays dress up because it looks edgy.
Why is Joker obsessed with comedy and being a clown, with making everything into a joke? Ummm yeah that does need an explanation beyond “well its his nickname.” The obsession with clowning and the developed comedy/clown skills which is his biggest defining trait needs to be rooted in something. No explanation in DK, the make up and costume are just cheap visuals to sell you on him being so “crazy and different” without writing it in the script. New Joker it’s crystal clear where those comedy skills/obsession comes from.
Joker is supposed to the most mentally ill villain in Batman’s world and new Joker didn’t need the costume and make up to sell that, which was refreshing. It was an actually crazy person trying but failing to control it and then embracing it. Not a genius trying really really hard to convince everyone in the room he was crazy without actually being ill like DK.
Phoenix passed up mega money roles to be Hulk n Doctor Strange simply because he would have to sign a contract for multi films. Hes turned down other big money flicks.
Saw it yesterday. While it was far better than I expected, I don't see it (as people hail it to be) as the best movie of 2019. Phoenix is masterful in it and... that's about it. I don't see myself thinking about the movie that often.
1. Story and script are OK, i guess. You want to know how it ends. Yes, some things are foreseeable, but you don't want to miss a single moment of the movie. Of course a bunch of people have their panties in the bunch about actually knowing the Jokers real name and (some of) his family members, but in the end, who cares. Dialogue is rather forgettable. I did like the realistic take, no acid, no supernatural stuff, just the plain, old routine of a guy on an edge being pushed over the edge by his surroundings. I can't say I would sympathize with Joker. I understand, with what was shown, in how he came to be the character he is now, but I wouldn't call him an anti-hero. To the people thinking he
doesn't kill an innocent civilian, isn't the lady in the end, in the hospital, an innocent civilian? He definitely murders her. I like that they left ambiguous the part about the young woman with the kid, I prefer to think she is alive.
2. Character development and acting - To be honest, I don't think there's any room for any other character besides Joker to be developed. The supporting actors did a solid job as far as acting goes, but no one stands out or has any larger role in the movie. If I would have to choose between the performances of Phoenix and Ledger (and I guess I have to, as I just mentioned it), i'd go with Ledger. Both are equally great in their own way, I just have a personal preference for Ledger's take on the legendary character. Ledger's ticks, body language, manners and gestures made the character stand out a bit more than the dancing and cringy laugh by Phoenix. And no, I am not impacted by the fact Ledger is dead. I appreciated that the movie did not present the "just one bad day" thing but more of a gradual transition for Joker. I love the quote, but I would hate to see that "one bad day" thing in a movie, it is a bit cliche.
3. Pacing and tone - good, maybe a tad slowish. At no point during the movie did I feel bored or that something was out of pace. Slow, continuous ride to how Joker came to be. Maybe i'm just impacted by the plethora of fast paced action movies I've being watching lately.
4. Cinematography, including sound and visuals - great. Went with a friend who is a pro photo and video guy and he could not shut up about the visuals (he does have a tendency for this slightly muted visuals). That said, I did find myself thinking "this is the third or fourth time they showed Joker looking through windows of moving vehicles". It's too similar to the iconic Dark knight scene. Soundtrack and score were great (though I did find out that they used a song written by some no name guy who happens to be in prison due to being a . Naturally, twitter is in an uproar about this) and go hand in hand with the narrative of the movie.
7,5/10
The little person not being able to reach door security knob thing was beyond hilarious. The entire theater died at that point.
And no, DC, you don't have to guide us through everything. We got that the girl thing was only in his imagination.
If DC did more movies like this, they'd be more even keel with Marvel. DC needs to be dark. I realize not every movie can be like Joker, but damn...I enjoyed Joker more than I did Endgame.
Seriously? You want every DC movie to be dark, regardless of the character(s)? Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, they should just all be dark? Seriously?
Dozens of movies like this, even in the past decade. Phoenix has been in a few. He has played a bunch of whacky, violent and insecure guys.
It is pretty much his calling card.
Just a couple of years ago he played a depressed impotent guy who turns into a killer, in "Irrational Man". In "The Master" he was a violent ex-army guy suffering from PTSD.
I'm surprised the people threw a fit now, considering that the guy has been playing roles like this for years.
They are two different time periods in the Jokers life. I havent seen the new movie but from the omnipresence chatter on it I can discern how Phoenix's Joker becomes the Ledger version.
After all the hype I was left a bit disappointed. I think I was expecting a bit more of a gangster type film. Dont get me wrong the movie was good, just not what I was expecting. I will be rewatching it soon to give a better opinion.
Why address that last criticism at DC? What does DC have to do with that choice?
The Dark Knight is just a garden variety bubble gummer comic flick? ...OK...
Seriously? You want every DC movie to be dark, regardless of the character(s)? Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, they should just all be dark? Seriously?
Ummmm...Joker thinks Bruce is his sibling, thus the motive for his rage against the Wayne’s throughout the 2nd half of the flick. Did you fall asleep in the theater?
Ummmm...Joker thinks Bruce is his sibling, thus the motive for his rage against the Wayne’s throughout the 2nd half of the flick. Did you fall asleep in the theater?
Ummmm...did you fall asleep at the point when he reads his mother's file and finds out that Thomas Wayne was telling him the truth that he isn't Wayne's son?
Ummmm...did you fall asleep at the point when he reads his mother's file and finds out that Thomas Wayne was telling him the truth that
he isn't Wayne's son?
Lol. You don’t think the most powerful man in Gotham can pay a crooked doctor to have a mistress with his illegitimate son stashed in an asylum to cover his ass?
The flick went out of its way to show that’s a definite possibility. Did you not see the later scene where he finds a picture of his young mother working at Wayne manor with a little love note signed by Thomas Wayne? Why else would that put that in there besides to show Fleck doubted the story. Clearly there’s still a strong chance Thomas Wayne covered some shit up.
Lol. You don’t think the most powerful man in Gotham can pay a crooked doctor to have a mistress with his illegitimate son stashed in an asylum to cover his ass?
The flick went out of its way to show that’s a definite possibility. Did you not see the later scene where he finds a picture of his young mother working at Wayne manor with a little love note signed by Thomas Wayne? Why else would that put that in there besides to show Fleck doubted the story. Clearly there’s still a strong chance Thomas Wayne covered some shit up.
No way of knowing if that photo is real or just in Arthur's imagination. He's crazy, remember? No way of knowing if that scene actually even takes place or not. No way of knowing if Penny might have written that love note herself. She was crazy too, remember?
Lol. You don’t think the most powerful man in Gotham can pay a crooked doctor to have a mistress with his illegitimate son stashed in an asylum to cover his ass?
The flick went out of its way to show that’s a definite possibility. Did you not see the later scene where he finds a picture of his young mother working at Wayne manor with a little love note signed by Thomas Wayne? Why else would that put that in there besides to show Fleck doubted the story. Clearly there’s still a strong chance Thomas Wayne covered some shit up.
I assume her and Thomas had a secret fling at one point, but I’m not buying he impregnated her and that Arthur is his son.
Remember, the movie makes a point of saying/showing that the mother was as bat shit crazy as Arthur. She either fabricated the letter or wanted to desperately believe in something that wasn’t true.
No way of knowing if that photo is real or just in Arthur's imagination. He's crazy, remember? No way of knowing if that scene actually even takes place or not. No way of knowing if Penny might have written that love note herself. She was crazy too, remember?
Bro, whether or not any of it is real has no bearing on Joker’s headspace because he can’t tell what’s real. It’s real to him and thus is part of what motivates his actions which is what I was posting about.
I assume her and Thomas had a secret fling at one point, but I’m not buying he impregnated her and that Arthur is his son.
Remember, the movie makes a point of saying/showing that the mother was as bat shit crazy as Arthur. She either fabricated the letter or wanted to desperately believe in something that wasn’t true.
I disagree cuz Thomas Wayne comes off as a scumbag in the flick and I’d say the chances are 50/50 he’d pull this shit off.
Remember, they don’t show the mother as batshit crazy until later in her life. After she’s possibly been wrongly held in an insane asylum, maybe forced medication,
and told she’s crazy by a creepy doctor.
If she was that batshit crazy the whole time and making it all up, why isn’t she crazily ranting about her huge delusion to Arthur?
There is a reason they paint Wayne the way the did in the flick. A dick in power with a lot to lose. It wasn’t to discredit the theory maybe he is Arthur’s dad.
I thought the funniest part of the movie was when he was smoking a cig outside the hospital being questioned by the cops he goes to walk back into the hospital and.....
Bro, whether or not any of it is real has no bearing on Joker’s headspace because he can’t tell what’s real. It’s real to him and thus is part of what motivates his actions which is what I was posting about.
We don't know if it's real to him. What I'm saying is, we don't actually know much of anything. All we do know is he's crazy. That's all we really know. We don't know if anything in the movie is actually real. It could all be just a crazy fantasy or a story he tells his psychiatrist. I came out of that movie not trusting anything I'd seen.
I disagree cuz Thomas Wayne comes off as a scumbag in the flick and I’d say the chances are 50/50 he’d pull this shit off.
Remember, they don’t show the mother as batshit crazy until later in her life. After she’s possibly been wrongly held in an insane asylum, maybe forced medication,
and told she’s crazy by a creepy doctor.
If she was that batshit crazy the whole time and making it all up, why isn’t she crazily ranting about her huge delusion to Arthur?
Thomas Wayne comes off as a scumbag from Arthur's point of view. He might not actually be a scumbag. You're far too trusting in what you saw. You seem to be accepting everything you weren't explicitly told was false was true. It could all have just been one big mind fuck.
We don't know if it's real to him. What I'm saying is, we don't actually know much of anything. All we do know is he's crazy. That's all we really know. We don't know if anything in the movie is actually real. It could all be just a crazy fantasy or a story he tells his psychiatrist. I came out of that movie not trusting anything I'd seen.
Thomas Wayne comes off as a scumbag from Arthur's point of view. He might not actually be a scumbag. You're far too trusting in what you saw. You seem to be accepting everything you weren't explicitly told was false was true. It could all have just been one big mind fuck.
So you just posted “They AREN’T brothers”
like it’s a fact and I was crazy and now ten minutes later you’re saying anything can be true and that’s what you’re saying.
Really solid movie. As many of you guys have noted, the cinematography, music, and Phoenix's performance were all excellent.
Don't mind the "didn't connect to the broader DC universe" or "didn't feel true to the typical conception of the Joker," type issues at all. In fact, I kind of hope it is a one off. Once again, it underscores that Warners doesn't have to try to force a cinematic universe like MCU has masterfully done. They can do interesting movies, regardless of whether or not they connect.
He didn't do anything to Zazie did he? That shit had me worried.
Also, since they established that Arthur was prone to deluded daydreaming early in the film- his emotional moment with DeNiro where he brought him up from the audience- I assumed that Zazie and he forming a relationship was in his head. But even still, the reveal was hard hitting for me. Just seeing how uncomfortable she was to see him in there. This guy convinced himself they had some special connection and she is horrified to see him in her place. Well done scene.
So you just posted “They AREN’T brothers”
like it’s a fact and I was crazy and now ten minutes later you’re saying anything can be true and that’s what you’re saying.
I didn't say anything can be true. I said we don't know if anything in the movie is actually real. I'm sure the scene with Arthur reading his mother's file was put in to reassure the comic fans in the audience, "Don't worry. We were just fuckin' with ya. We'd never actually make Batman and Joker brothers. We know how pissed off ya all got when Tim Burton made Joker the killer of Batman's parents. We've learned it's best not to try to pull any shit like that on ya again."
He didn't do anything to Zazie did he? That shit had me worried.
Also, since they established that Arthur was prone to deluded daydreaming early in the film- his emotional moment with DeNiro where he brought him up from the audience- I assumed that Zazie and he forming a relationship was in his head. But even still, the reveal was hard hitting for me. Just seeing how uncomfortable she was to see him in there. This guy convinced himself they had some special connection and she is horrified to see him in her place. Well done scene.
Really solid movie. As many of you guys have noted, the cinematography, music, and Phoenix's performance were all excellent.
Don't mind the "didn't connect to the broader DC universe" or "didn't feel true to the typical conception of the Joker," type issues at all. In fact, I kind of hope it is a one off. Once again, it underscores that Warners doesn't have to try to force a cinematic universe like MCU has masterfully done. They can do interesting movies, regardless of whether or not they connect.
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