John Danaher - History Of The Triangle Choke (podcast)

[spiderguarda]

This is true but if you should check out Mastering Jiu Jitsu. It's Renzo's first book but Danaher wrote it and he covers the history of Japanese Jujutsu/Judo/BJJ from feudal times all the way up to the late 90s. It's incredibly informative in terms of martial arts history. He has a Master's degree from Columbia so I think his research skills are respectable.

I agree but it’s difficult as I doubt he corresponded to those practicing or are knowledgeable about old Japanese martial arts. Quite a few survive and you can watch their demonstrations on YouTube but it’s notoriously difficult to understand some of the meanings of some techniques. Books like the Choque series and other books that try to trace the history and especially the techniques of BJJ is difficult.

Right. I stopped at around eleven minutes and I must say that it is almost sounds conspiracy theories.

From memory, kosen judo comes from one part of Japan and the kodokan judo was mostly influenced by another part of Japan which favoured tachiwaza over newaza.
Mitsuro Kimura 8th Dan Judo was also known as Mr Sankaku. So he was the sensei to go when it came Sankaku. Have a look on you tube. Hundred of judo BB claims him as their sensei.

Another interesting fact that I learn is that Sankaku is the description for locking your leg into a triangle.

For example, omoplata or a bicep slicer can considered as sankaku.

Kosen Judo was developed and practiced amongst certain universities. I forgot where I read this but it was about how these guys were nerdy but bright students that could get into the top universities. They would lose in a stand up match with other universities with guys who were athletic and built. They continued the dragging of their opponents to the ground like the Fusen stylists that fought Kano’s judokas. Once on the ground, they could focus on submission techniques.

Sankaku translates into triangle. San is three in Japanese and means triangle.

Danaher has a good point about how personalities are remembered but techniques and their development are not well documented.

But I do agree that the triangle choke from the guard is a relative invention in Judo. That’s his basic argument and it’s not far fetched. Is the triangle choke from the guard a formal Judo technique that is a technique in the formal katas?

 

[nefti]

Iirc it was oda who was supposed tonhave invented the triangle from the guard.

 

[Ryo]

Iirc it was oda who was supposed tonhave invented the triangle from the guard.

Watch this video. It doesn't get much more legit than this guy. He directly contradicts that claim. Here is an interview from a few months ago with Yuji Nimura who is the head guy at Nagoya uiversity Kosen Judo. This guy knows more about Kosen Judo and the history of the development of high level newaza techniques that we use in JJ in modern times than John Danaher. His lineage is from Kotaro Okano (10th degree BB) who actually fought in matches against Oda. According to him Yochibei Kanimitsu (who replaced Okano as a teacher in Okayama) was the guy along with his studenta who created the triangle choke as we know it today. Now this just one account and the depth of important people to Kosen Judo and high level newaza is great so it's quite complicated. However this is pretty legit, compelling evidence from the master of Nagoya University who was around during the time of the originators we are speaking of.

 

[kenetics]

Can't deal with Danaher wearing a rashguard. Too ridiculous.

He's like a ex military guy wearing camos everywhere, cringy as hell .

 

[kenetics]

This is true but if you should check out Mastering Jiu Jitsu. It's Renzo's first book but Danaher wrote it and he covers the history of Japanese Jujutsu/Judo/BJJ from feudal times all the way up to the late 90s. It's incredibly informative in terms of martial arts history. He has a Master's degree from Columbia so I think his research skills are respectable.

I know alot of people who philosophy degrees. I'm not impressed lol.

 

[nefti]

Watch this video. It doesn't get much more legit than this guy. He directly contradicts that claim. Here is an interview from a few months ago with Yuji Nimura who is the head guy at Nagoya uiversity Kosen Judo. This guy knows more about Kosen Judo and the history of the development of high level newaza techniques that we use in JJ in modern times than John Danaher. His lineage is from Kotaro Okano (10th degree BB) who actually fought in matches against Oda. According to him Yochibei Kanimitsu (who replaced Okano as a teacher in Okayama) was the guy along with his studenta who created the triangle choke as we know it today. Now this just one account and the depth of important people to Kosen Judo and high level newaza is great so it's quite complicated. However this is pretty legit, compelling evidence from the master of Nagoya University who was around during the time of the originators we are speaking of.

So he was a contemporary of oda? I really guess the triangle is a recent invention. I guess it makes sense that as more guardplay was allowed that guard techniques would evolve. Who knows right? Multiple people can come up with similar ideas when under the same situation and conditions.

 

[nefti]

Watch this video. It doesn't get much more legit than this guy. He directly contradicts that claim. Here is an interview from a few months ago with Yuji Nimura who is the head guy at Nagoya uiversity Kosen Judo. This guy knows more about Kosen Judo and the history of the development of high level newaza techniques that we use in JJ in modern times than John Danaher. His lineage is from Kotaro Okano (10th degree BB) who actually fought in matches against Oda. According to him Yochibei Kanimitsu (who replaced Okano as a teacher in Okayama) was the guy along with his studenta who created the triangle choke as we know it today. Now this just one account and the depth of important people to Kosen Judo and high level newaza is great so it's quite complicated. However this is pretty legit, compelling evidence from the master of Nagoya University who was around during the time of the originators we are speaking of.

Are we talking about the specific triangle from the guard? Or was Kanimitsu great at triangles from other positions such as the turtle?

The conversation that john had was a specific triangle from the guard. Because we have similar triangles against the turtle. Whicn makes sense because many grappling styles had to deal with the turtle defense.

 

[Ryo]

They are obviously talking about the triangle from guard, which was common in Kosen Judo. That's the reason the interviewer asked him about it. Because the rumor for many years now is that Tsunetsune Oda was the man responsible for creating the triangle choke from guard and implementing it effectively as we know it today. Mr. Nimura then goes on to mention specifically that it was Kanimitsu and his students.

 

[nefti]

They are obviously talking about the triangle from guard, which was common in Kosen Judo. That's the reason the interviewer asked him about it. Because the rumor for many years now is that Tsunetsune Oda was the man responsible for creating the triangle choke from guard and implementing it effectively as we know it today. Mr. Nimura then goes on to mention specifically that it was Kanimitsu and his students.

Is it? I didnt get that they were specifically asking about the triangle from the guard. The picture they even use isnt a triangle from the guard. Perhaps i missed something. Did they specifically use phrases like "guard", "from the back" , "from the bottom" suggesting guard triangles?

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

I read the thread title as John Dahmer

 

[Ryo]

Is it? I didnt get that they were specifically asking about the triangle from the guard. The picture they even use isnt a triangle from the guard. Perhaps i missed something. Did they specifically use phrases like "guard", "from the back" , "from the bottom" suggesting guard triangles?

First of all, the interviewer is obviously asking these questions for Western audiences who are more familiar with JJ. He calls it the triangle choke which is almost universally associated with JJ and from the guard position. They don't call it the triangle in Judo. They call it sankaku jime which could be from any position. However, Kanimitsu specifically is known for two techniques most of all. Mai Sankaku Jime which is the triangle from guard and hiza juji gatame which is a knee bar. Mr Nimura refers to Kanimitsu and Kanimitsu is known for implementing the triangle from guard. It stands to reason that they are talking about the triangle from guard.

 

[nefti]

First of all, the interviewer is obviously asking these questions for Western audiences who are more familiar with JJ. He calls it the triangle choke which is almost universally associated with JJ and from the guard position. They don't call it the triangle in Judo. They call it sankaku jime which could be from any position. However, Kanimitsu specifically is known for two techniques most of all. Mai Sankaku Jime which is the triangle from guard and hiza juji gatame which is a knee bar. Mr Nimura refers to Kanimitsu and Kanimitsu is known for implementing the triangle from guard. It stands to reason that they are talking about the triangle from guard.

View attachment 494477

I guess that is one way of looking at it. But i have another question:

Why is he more credible than people who say oda created the triangle? Didnt odas students state that he created the triangle? Why would they be less credible than him?

I guess what we can agree on is thst john is probably correct, that the triangle from the guard is a fairly recent innovation.

 

[Ryo]

I guess that is one way of looking at it. But i have another question:

Why is he more credible than people who say oda created the triangle? Didnt odas students state that he created the triangle? Why would they be less credible than him?

I guess what we can agree on is thst john is probably correct, that the triangle from the guard is a fairly recent innovation.

Well, there are different sides to this of course. But Mr. Nimura was not a student of Kanemitsu. Nimuras teacher was Kotaro Okano so he's just reporting history as he knows it I suppose. However, Mr. Nimuras account of the history of Kosen Judo is pretty compelling evidence considering he's been training in Kosen for 60 years and is the head of Nagoya University Judo. You would be hard pressed to find a person living today who is more qualified to speak about thehistory of Kosen Judo.

 

[Ryo]

I guess that is one way of looking at it. But i have another question:

Why is he more credible than people who say oda created the triangle? Didnt odas students state that he created the triangle? Why would they be less credible than him?

I guess what we can agree on is thst john is probably correct, that the triangle from the guard is a fairly recent innovation.

Here is a video of Kanemitsu performing lots of triangles from guard and even one from s mount is in there somewhere. It was his specialty. He really perfected it.

 

[Invisible Jiu Jitsu]

here john says the triangle from supine position has been around for aeons. which is it john??

 

[SUPERGRAPPLER]

Watch this video. It doesn't get much more legit than this guy. He directly contradicts that claim. Here is an interview from a few months ago with Yuji Nimura who is the head guy at Nagoya uiversity Kosen Judo. This guy knows more about Kosen Judo and the history of the development of high level newaza techniques that we use in JJ in modern times than John Danaher. His lineage is from Kotaro Okano (10th degree BB) who actually fought in matches against Oda. According to him Yochibei Kanimitsu (who replaced Okano as a teacher in Okayama) was the guy along with his studenta who created the triangle choke as we know it today. Now this just one account and the depth of important people to Kosen Judo and high level newaza is great so it's quite complicated. However this is pretty legit, compelling evidence from the master of Nagoya University who was around during the time of the originators we are speaking of.

Amazing find! Thanks for sharing this.

 

[cugnao]

I read the thread title as John Dahmer

View attachment 494285

Muahahahaha, so creepy!

 

[mattemate]

Right. I stopped at around eleven minutes and I must say that it is almost sounds conspiracy theories.

From memory, kosen judo comes from one part of Japan and the kodokan judo was mostly influenced by another part of Japan which favoured tachiwaza over newaza.
Mitsuro Kimura 8th Dan Judo was also known as Mr Sankaku. So he was the sensei to go when it came Sankaku. Have a look on you tube. Hundred of judo BB claims him as their sensei.

Another interesting fact that I learn is that Sankaku is the description for locking your leg into a triangle.

For example, omoplata or a bicep slicer can considered as sankaku.

Interesting. I like attacking the turtle with the reverse triangle at :50

 

[lechien]

Interesting. I like attacking the turtle with the reverse triangle at :50

Lol. This is my sister club. You can see Kane demonstrate a series of Sankaku and the last one is actually a bicep slicer.

 

[mattemate]

What's your point brah?