Crime Joe pardons Hunter

[CantCucktheTuck]

lol at being mad about what trump might do while not giving a shit that biden has already done it.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Like I said I don't like the idea of issuing a vague pardon that isn't for a specific crime but I reject the idea that this is anyway comparable to Trump pardoning his cronies which got nowhere near the same amount of attention despite being far more egregious.

it's a lot worse.
blanket pardon for ANYTHING in the last 11 years?
trump hasn't done anything like that.
but he will. cause why not now?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

lol at being mad about what trump might do while not giving a shit that biden has already done it.

it's a ridiculous argument. what biden did is a lot worse than trump's.

 

[Islam Imamate]

it's a lot worse.
blanket pardon for ANYTHING in the last 11 years?
trump hasn't done anything like that.
but he will. cause why not now?

Its nowhere near as bad as Trump pardoning his cronies for schemes he himself was complicit in. I also find it laughable that we're acting like Trump cares about norms and would only consider these options if Biden does them first, the guy was talking about pardoning himself even in his first term.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Its nowhere near as bad as Trump pardoning his cronies for schemes he himself was complicit in.

it's CLEARLY a lot worse. only a partisan hack would claim otherwise.

I also find it laughable that we're acting like Trump cares about norms and would only consider these options if Biden does them first, the guy was talking about pardoning himself even in his first term.

this is nonsense. trump literally didnt do it. biden literally did pardon his son for basically everything. there's no comparison to be made.

 

[Islam Imamate]

it's CLEARLY a lot worse. only a partisan hack would claim otherwise.

How is it clearly worse? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a partisan.

this is nonsense. trump literally didnt do it. biden literally did pardon his son for basically everything. there's no comparison to be made.

Trump didn't do what, pardon his cronies in Manafort and Stone? He did though.

 

[MMAisGod]

You're acting like I'm for the pardons of Hunter and Cheney when I'm not. What I am saying is that you're ignoring the primary reason this is being considered and its because Trump is promising to go after his enemies with the DOJ and in fact two posts above yours are lauding him for that in the case of Fauci.

Additionally I don't accept your conclusion that Trump needs Biden to do this to consider it himself. He's even talked about pardoning himself in the past, something not even Nixon did. Its silly to act like Trump needs an excuse to consider egregious norm violations when that was what he ran on and was elected for.

I don't think at any point you have said you favor Hunter or Cheney being pardoned. I think you're trying to make it more about "he's thinking of doing it because Trump is gonna attack people", rather than the long term consequences of what those actions would mean. I know WHY he's thinking of doing, I just think those reasons aren't nearly enough TO do it. It would directly contribute to worst-case future outcomes. That's been my point the entire time. It sucks for "those people" without a pre-emptive pardon, yes, but the consequences of such an action being successful are MUCH greater as it would massively amplify what we already have coming our way.

Before this, or without it, nthing was likely to happen besides of course Trump potentially trying to pardon himself with a persecution complex in 2028 that I think we both know is likely. Whereas if something like this goes through, he will USE IT to start 2025 with THIS already in his head and in the plan for ALL his people to go balls deep for 4 years, probably even promising them the "future pardon" if they do illegal things, then like "oh let me pardon these 25 big time corrupt people before they can be investigated for the illegal things I told them to do, glad I have this power Maga!".

The threat to democracy you talk about? THIS would be the first time I would go from "terrible president" to "actual true threat" with something like this. Worst case scenario stuff. This is how you create a supervillain.

I honestly think it's perfectly fine to test the limits of pardoning so it actually get challenged and settled in court.

The problem isn't that Trump and Biden are using their powers to issue blanket pardons, it's that the language on the scope or limits of pardons is not defined much at all. The framers of the constitution simply did not intend for our Presidents to be this shitty about it. Same thing goes with Trump's abuses of office and crimes, and the shield provided by the supreme court. They simply didn't account for us being so vapid we would elect a literal criminal that tried to overturn election results.

The loopholes in the constitution need to be challenged and defined. That's the real precedent that matters.

Funny enough my best case scenario is Biden attempts it, it gets shutdown by the SC, and now we have ruling so it can't be attempted by Trump or anyone else in the future. Maybe he's playing the big brain 4D Chess all along.

Flip side, my biggest fear and worst case scenario is that the conservative-leaning SC knows Trump would want to have a power like this, so they allow the Cheney and Fauci and etc people as a short term win for Biden/party only for Trump to go Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct mode knowing he just achieved elite power and start planning to get dirtiest of dirty with his immunity crew and we're all screwed.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

How is it clearly worse? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a partisan.

a sweeping 11 year pardon for any act that hunter may have been involved in is significantly more expansive than what the trump pardons did. you're not a partisan hack because you disagree, you're a hack because you act like there's a similarity between some punctual, specific act and a pardon that covers 11 YEARS, which is clearly worse.

Trump didn't do what, pardon his cronies in Manafort and Stone? He did though.

YEAH, for specific things, not here, have a decade in which you're untouchable no matter what comes about you have done. any reasonable person can see the difference.

 

[Islam Imamate]

a sweeping 11 year pardon for any act that hunter may have been involved in is significantly more expansive than what the trump pardons did. you're not a partisan hack because you disagree, you're a hack because you act like there's a similarity between some punctual, specific act and a pardon that covers 11 YEARS, which is clearly worse.

The difference is that Trump is promising to go on a fishing expedition against his perceived enemies so it makes sense to back date the pardon. It was the same with Nixon whose pardon was backdated to cover his presidency.

YEAH, for specific things, not here, have a decade in which you're untouchable no matter what comes about you have done. any reasonable person can see the difference.

Specific things that Trump himself was directly involved in.

 

[SKYNET]

lol at being mad about what trump might do while not giving a shit that biden has already done it.

I guess it's just a grand coincidence that the majority of the batshit commentary here, parallels the same exact views being expressed by the batshit pundits on mainstream news shows.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I don't think at any point you have said you favor Hunter or Cheney being pardoned. I think you're trying to make it more about "he's thinking of doing it because Trump is gonna attack people", rather than the long term consequences of what those actions would mean. I know WHY he's thinking of doing, I just think those reasons aren't nearly enough TO do it. It would directly contribute to worst-case future outcomes. That's been my point the entire time. It sucks for "those people" without a pre-emptive pardon, yes, but the consequences of such an action being successful are MUCH greater as it would massively amplify what we already have coming our way.

Before this, or without it, nthing was likely to happen besides of course Trump potentially trying to pardon himself with a persecution complex in 2028 that I think we both know is likely. Whereas if something like this goes through, he will USE IT to start 2025 with THIS already in his head and in the plan for ALL his people to go balls deep for 4 years, probably even promising them the "future pardon" if they do illegal things, then like "oh let me pardon these 25 big time corrupt people before they can be investigated for the illegal things I told them to do, glad I have this power Maga!".

Nothing was likely to happen? Trump himself said he plans on pardoning all Jan 6th convicts and has a history of pardoning his cronies. I agree that Biden pardoning Hunter was wrong but I'm not going to pretend this is going to make Trump more likely to do the things he's already done and said he would do. The difference is that some on the left will criticize Biden for this like I am doing while any pardons Trump does will have more or less unanimous support from the right.

The threat to democracy you talk about? THIS would be the first time I would go from "terrible president" to "actual true threat" with something like this. Worst case scenario stuff. This is how you create a supervillain.

The supervillain was already created though, not sure why you're acting like Trump isn't already committed to breaking any norms that stand in his way when he's said as much for the last nine years.

Funny enough my best case scenario is Biden attempts it, it gets shutdown by the SC, and now we have ruling so it can't be attempted by Trump or anyone else in the future. Maybe he's playing the big brain 4D Chess all along.

Flip side, my biggest fear and worst case scenario is that the conservative-leaning SC knows Trump would want to have a power like this, so they allow the Cheney and Fauci and etc people as a short term win for Biden/party only for Trump to go Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct mode knowing he just achieved elite power and start planning to get dirtiest of dirty with his immunity crew and we're all screwed.

What's to stop Trump from doing it himself anyway and getting what he wants from the 6-3 SCOTUS even if Biden didn't pardon Hunter? You think Trump needs to wait for someone else to violate a norm before he feels comfortable doing so?

 

[blaseblase]

No one's gonna care when Trump pardons himself because Biden is setting the precedent. So much for having the moral high ground.

 

[MMAisGod]

Nothing was likely to happen? Trump himself said he plans on pardoning all Jan 6th convicts and has a history of pardoning his cronies. I agree that Biden pardoning Hunter was wrong but I'm not going to pretend this is going to make Trump more likely to do the things he's already done and said he would do. The difference is that some on the left will criticize Biden for this like I am doing while any pardons Trump does will have more or less unanimous support from the right.

The supervillain was already created though, not sure why you're acting like Trump isn't already committed to breaking any norms that stand in his way when he's said as much for the last nine years.

What's to stop Trump from doing it himself anyway and getting what he wants from the 6-3 SCOTUS even if Biden didn't pardon Hunter? You think Trump needs to wait for someone else to violate a norm before he feels comfortable doing so?

Why would Trump pardoning Jan 6 criminals have anything at all to do with anything I, or even you, have said lol. Gonna have to just agree to disagree because we're gonna talk in circles. I don't think I could ever not think that something like that passing, future pardons that prevent people from being investigated, would not have a direct emboldening of Trump to go from 100% to 600% due to the fact that he would have been given demonstratable proof of what his buddies would be able to pull off without any fear of future consequences.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Why would Trump pardoning Jan 6 criminals have anything at all to do with anything I, or even you, have said lol. Gonna have to just agree to disagree because we're gonna talk in circles. I don't think I could ever not think that something like that passing, future pardons that prevent people from being investigated, would not have a direct emboldening of Trump to go from 100% to 600% due to the fact that he would have been given demonstratable proof of what his buddies would be able to pull off without any fear of future consequences.

The point being he campaigned on issuing partisan pardons, why would we think that he would only consider these if Biden issued one? And its not like backdated pardons are unheard of, Nixon got one. My bet is Trump not only pardons the Jan 6th rioters but backdates it all the way to Jan 6th so they can't be convicted of any crimes relating to the incident.

 

[MMAisGod]

The point being he campaigned on issuing partisan pardons, why would we think that he would only consider these if Biden issued one? And its not like backdated pardons are unheard of, Nixon got one. My bet is Trump not only pardons the Jan 6th rioters but backdates it all the way to Jan 6th so they can't be convicted of any crimes relating to the incident.

Alright I'll try one more post because I think after all this you still may not fully understand what I'm talking about lol.

-Jan 6 people are criminals. Hunter Biden was a criminal. The scumbags Trump pardoned in the past are criminals. Even Nixon was a criminal and was a unique case considering he was an actual President and accepted the pardon as an admission of his crime(s).

-Regardless of how the pardons were given, these were criminals who participated in one form or another in a criminal action.

-Lets use Fauci. Fauci, is not a criminal. He is not under investigation, or indictment, or anything, he's a guy who did a job, love him or hate him. Some who hate him, will want to bring the hammer to his doorstep, even if unjust, like Trump.

-Biden, if he pardons Fauci, would be pardoning a guy who is not guilty of a crime, not in court, not under indictment, not a criminal, he would be a guy who did a job who is receiving a pre-emptive pardon.
*This is the precedent*

-Trump, who likely know matter what happens, will pardon more criminal guys in the future, and potentially himself, will see Biden pardon Fauci, a guy with nothing criminal even happening, receiving a pardon.

-Trump now, instead of doing Trump things, pardoning some criminals, and letting a bunch of guys go under investigation and get arrested like what literally happened after his first term, will now see he has MORE POWER than before and two things will happen.

-First, he will have received undeniable proof that he can pardon people who are "potentially going to be investigated". This will empower him to be even bolder, something he "may not have had someone do just in case", now he can absolutely try it and say "no worries, I'll pardon you from any future investigation bruh".

-Second, for political purposes, it will feed a bad argument such as "Fauci got the pardon because they know he was guilty of xyz Covid", amplifying the already damaged optics due to the nature the pardon would be given.

-Fast forward years later, and instead of "bad Trump who things" we go Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct Trump welding the power of "future pardon" to cover having his buddies go 600% before they get accused of things.

This is the problem, the major, major problem. Not the people involved. Not the backdating. The on-paper power and reassurance you're signing over officially to Trump to know. The deadliest combination imaginable.

Alright now I'm out lol.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Alright I'll try one more post because I think after all this you still may not fully understand what I'm talking about lol.

-Jan 6 people are criminals. Hunter Biden was a criminal. The scumbags Trump pardoned in the past are criminals. Even Nixon was a criminal and was a unique case considering he was an actual President and accepted the pardon as an admission of his crime(s).

-Regardless of how the pardons were given, these were criminals who participated in one form or another in a criminal action.

-Lets use Fauci. Fauci, is not a criminal. He is not under investigation, or indictment, or anything, he's a guy who did a job, love him or hate him. Some who hate him, will want to bring the hammer to his doorstep, even if unjust, like Trump.

-Biden, if he pardons Fauci, would be pardoning a guy who is not guilty of a crime, not in court, not under indictment, not a criminal, he would be a guy who did a job who is receiving a pre-emptive pardon.
*This is the precedent*

-Trump, who likely know matter what happens, will pardon more criminal guys in the future, and potentially himself, will see Biden pardon Fauci, a guy with nothing criminal even happening, receiving a pardon.

-Trump now, instead of doing Trump things, pardoning some criminals, and letting a bunch of guys go under investigation and get arrested like what literally happened after his first term, will now see he has MORE POWER than before and two things will happen.

-First, he will have received undeniable proof that he can pardon people who are "potentially going to be investigated". This will empower him to be even bolder, something he "may not have had someone do just in case", now he can absolutely try it and say "no worries, I'll pardon you from any future investigation bruh".

-Second, for political purposes, it will feed a bad argument such as "Fauci got the pardon because they know he was guilty of xyz Covid", amplifying the already damaged optics due to the nature the pardon would be given.

-Fast forward years later, and instead of "bad Trump who things" we go Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct Trump welding the power of "future pardon" to cover having his buddies go 600% before they get accused of things.

This is the problem, the major, major problem. Not the people involved. Not the backdating. The on-paper power and reassurance you're signing over officially to Trump to know. The deadliest combination imaginable.

Alright now I'm out lol.

I understand the argument you're making, that Biden violating norms around pardons and trying to expand what they can do hands that power over to Trump. I'm just saying I don't really buy it. With as much faith as I have in this SCOTUS Biden could try something like that, get shot down, only to have it approved by the 6-3 court when Trump tries. And either way I don't think Trump needs to wait for others to violate norms before he tries, its what he's run on for nine years and what his base loves him for. As for the base and the bad optics of these pardons to them, there's really no winning the low IQ MAGA base who thinks anything and everything is a conspiracy. We shouldn't govern to appease these crazy people. Again I do think the Hunter pardon is bad and hurts trust in institutions when we need it most and especially among people who are less crazy and dishonest than the MAGA base. In the grand scheme of things though its really not that impactful.

 

[BFoe]

See I'm probably harder on Joe B here than you are because I absoltuely don't think he should've done it because of how bad the optics are and because the only eprson who stands to gain is Hunter.

I'm okay with Democrats violating some norms given that the GOP under Trump has made it a point to do so but even then it should be done selectively and mainly when there's big upside and the the norm violation is not too egregious. This is not that, in fact its the opposite in that its perceived as very egregious and yet it only has upside for Hunter and his family.

That said, yes you're absolutely right that people are just ignoring Trump's blatant threats to wield the DOJ against people he doesn't like.

I think that’s a fair assessment. The optics of the Hunter pardon look like shit, there’s no doubt about that. But again, the optics of Trump’s Charles Kushner pardon (and subsequent ambassadorship) look like shit too, and they couldn’t be bothered.

This pre-emptive pardon business is a direct response not only to Trump’s threats, but his choosing of Kash Patel as FBI Director and the things he may do. But if you go to that Trump Appointments thread, the Righties love that pick and gloat about it. So, now they can love the consequences AFAIC, People aren’t just going to sit there and be threatened, they’re going to take action to defend themselves. When Trump voters voted for Trump, they also voted for this, whether they realize it or not.

 

[Andy Capp]

I don't think at any point you have said you favor Hunter or Cheney being pardoned. I think you're trying to make it more about "he's thinking of doing it because Trump is gonna attack people", rather than the long term consequences of what those actions would mean. I know WHY he's thinking of doing, I just think those reasons aren't nearly enough TO do it. It would directly contribute to worst-case future outcomes. That's been my point the entire time. It sucks for "those people" without a pre-emptive pardon, yes, but the consequences of such an action being successful are MUCH greater as it would massively amplify what we already have coming our way.

Before this, or without it, nthing was likely to happen besides of course Trump potentially trying to pardon himself with a persecution complex in 2028 that I think we both know is likely. Whereas if something like this goes through, he will USE IT to start 2025 with THIS already in his head and in the plan for ALL his people to go balls deep for 4 years, probably even promising them the "future pardon" if they do illegal things, then like "oh let me pardon these 25 big time corrupt people before they can be investigated for the illegal things I told them to do, glad I have this power Maga!".

The threat to democracy you talk about? THIS would be the first time I would go from "terrible president" to "actual true threat" with something like this. Worst case scenario stuff. This is how you create a supervillain.



Funny enough my best case scenario is Biden attempts it, it gets shutdown by the SC, and now we have ruling so it can't be attempted by Trump or anyone else in the future. Maybe he's playing the big brain 4D Chess all along.

Flip side, my biggest fear and worst case scenario is that the conservative-leaning SC knows Trump would want to have a power like this, so they allow the Cheney and Fauci and etc people as a short term win for Biden/party only for Trump to go Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct mode knowing he just achieved elite power and start planning to get dirtiest of dirty with his immunity crew and we're all screwed.

What do you suppose the Supreme Court can do about the President lawfully executing the duties of his office?

Just speaking for myself, again, I disagree that Trump needs this or any other justification, or a reason for that matter, to do any of what you're talking about.

 

[Andy Capp]

I think that’s a fair assessment. The optics of the Hunter pardon look like shit, there’s no doubt about that. But again, the optics of Trump’s Charles Kushner pardon (and subsequent ambassadorship) look like shit too, and they couldn’t be bothered.

This pre-emptive pardon business is a direct response not only to Trump’s threats, but his choosing of Kash Patel as FBI Director and the things he may do. But if you go to that Trump Appointments thread, the Righties love that pick and gloat about it. So, now they can love the consequences AFAIC, People aren’t just going to sit there and be threatened, they’re going to take action to defend themselves. When Trump voters voted for Trump, they also voted for this, whether they realize it or not.

Right on the money. They're surely not going to sit back and wait to be sent to the financial gulag of never-ending need for lawyers.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think that’s a fair assessment. The optics of the Hunter pardon look like shit, there’s no doubt about that. But again, the optics of Trump’s Charles Kushner pardon (and subsequent ambassadorship) look like shit too, and they couldn’t be bothered.

Unfortunately I think the Hunter pardon will stick out far more in the public eye because its a father pardoning his son which gives off a worse impression of nepotism. I'm a big critic of Trump and even I only remembered about the Charles Kushner pardon when the Hunter pardon became a story.

This pre-emptive pardon business is a direct response not only to Trump’s threats, but his choosing of Kash Patel as FBI Director and the things he may do. But if you go to that Trump Appointments thread, the Righties love that pick and gloat about it. So, now they can love the consequences AFAIC, People aren’t just going to sit there and be threatened, they’re going to take action to defend themselves. When Trump voters voted for Trump, they also voted for this, whether they realize it or not.

Oh yeah of course they're horrible but in MMAisGod's defense he's not one those guys and he's arguing against this pardon because he thinks it might embolden Trump to wield the pardon power more egregiously. Idk that I buy it but its not nonsensical.