Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

[Strykerx]

I know you guys aren't asking me but I figured there should be more contributions from other members.

Sinister, somehow i keep getting my neck strained whenever im in the stance for too long. How should i put my chin down properly?

My suggestion is to get in your stance while facing a mirror. If you weight is where it's suppose to be (55-60% on the back foot) then your lead shoulder should come up. Thus allowing your chin to be tucked in easier it can also rest along the shoulder. If you're a beginner then it's just a matter of training more. Your body may not be used to tucking in its chin.

Sinister do you believe the way the tall viking is stood on your first videos and the way Gustafsson stands and i've seen a few others do it, is it better to have a stance and guard like this to be able to use your reach effectively? As opposed to a high guard where I find I let my opponents in too close? I just wonder about the low hands. I understand you keep the right up near the chin but the left stays low just below chest level. I've worded the question quite weird but is this style something that should be utilized by a tall fighter? (6"4)

(40 seconds onwards)

You just answered your own question. Having that high guard limits your reach and dimensions of attack. Hand positioning is important but not as important as keeping your elbows turn in which is the opposite of what Gustafsson is doing in that photo. If your elbows are flared out
1.) Your body is expose
2.) Lose leverage and ability to maximize power.

Standing as tall as the Viking is doing, IMO is dependent on what sport you do and what your comfortable with. Kick boxing requires one to be on the taller side where as boxing and mma require a more lower center of gravity to maintain balance and prevent takedowns. That's not to say you can't do both but the general crafts have different strengths.

 

[HURR1CANE]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I was playing around with the hand positioning whilst sparring yesterday (Boxing), although I am looking to compete in MMA but I am still trying to find my style and what works for me but I think I find it easier to use my range and pop jabs out from different angles using this hand position. But I'm going to have to work on my defense and movement alot because it would leave your head very open if someone slipped inside quickly.

 

[Sinister]

Ah there we go. The right feels much more fluid with that adjustment, thanks. I had initially thought that the

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Hey Sinister, could you kindly take a look at my sparring footage? It was bad as hell with my poor implication of the Blackburn crouch, but i think under the eyes of a pro i could learn more to improve myself :redface: Of course, if you have the time to spare

 

[SAAMAG]

^^I'd recommend first that you spar with boxing gloves and not MMA gloves. Second, are you trying to learn that style of stance more for your boxing or for kickboxing/mma? If it's the latter, you might be better off with a more narrow/upright stance. Have you looked to any of the muay thai or MMA guys for stance ideas also?

I learned to box using an off center stance--pretty close to what Joe Louis does. I know other trainers like Kenny Weldon coach to keeping the head off center as well with a slight dip in the hip as well. I use it in my fights / sparring matches when I'm just boxing for a bit, but will change my stances based on what I'm going at that moment. The stance is going to dictate many things...one of which are the inherent defenses as well as what you'll be able to send out in offense.

Something to consider.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

^^I'd recommend first that you spar with boxing gloves and not MMA gloves. Second, are you trying to learn that style of stance more for your boxing or for kickboxing/mma? If it's the latter, you might be better off with a more narrow/upright stance. Have you looked to any of the muay thai or MMA guys for stance ideas also?

I learned to box using an off center stance--pretty close to what Joe Louis does. I know other trainers like Kenny Weldon coach to keeping the head off center as well with a slight dip in the hip as well. I use it in my fights / sparring matches when I'm just boxing for a bit, but will change my stances based on what I'm going at that moment. The stance is going to dictate many things...one of which are the inherent defenses as well as what you'll be able to send out in offense.

Something to consider.

Yes, im trying to learn for mma. I did noticed that i was a little bit too crouch-y with the body and the knee bends. Right now i am just working on it via spotter when i am shadowboxing to make sure i stay in the correct amount of bend.

The spar was more of a light spar that focused more on reaction than hitting your sparring partner hard. It also reminded me to control my technique and strength when i am sparring. But yeah, when later i can get my hand on some proper MMA sparring gloves i will definitely use it. Right now i only have those ;_;

 

[Sinister]

Well I can tell you one thing Nuclearlandmine, your getting those neck pains because you're definitely keeping your shoulders too far forward, almost hunched. Gotta try to get them back more. To give you an idea how it should feel when you punch, when you're at home and you go to get something out of a cupboard that's head-level, when you reach for it, don't extend your shoulder. Keep the shoulder down, and the elbow close to your body as long as possible. When you punch, punch as if you have no room to do so. Sometimes we have guys practice it by making them stand near a wall, so if they lift the elbow too high, it touches the wall, letting them know it's flaring too much. You shouldn't need to hunch your shoulders to have your lead shoulder protect your face, if you tilt back on the pelvic bowl (lead hip raises, rear hip lowers just a little) the shoulder will come up to do this efficiently on its own. Like the picture of Louis I posted earlier in the more defensive posture.

Your opponent keeps getting a good angle for his right. That's because he keeps pointing his left toe directly at your center line. He's always facing you. So you're having to do a bit more work to get an angle than he is because you're not doing it back to him enough. He's also got good external rotation, whereas you have good internal rotation. Conversely you each have poor of the opposite. He has poor internal, you have poor external (To see what I'm talking about look at both of your knees. His point away from each other. Yours point more towards each other.) What this means is he gets better rotational power on circular punches, and you get better power on straight punches. So until you can remedy that situation, throw more straight punches. They're to your advantage. And hit him when he goes for straight punches, but stay away when he goes for circular ones. He's also very good at putting his weight on the backside of his foot, that's why his lead leg is so mobile, and I'd wager he has a very strong right side. Whereas you tend to put more weight towards the insides of your feet (this is a function of having good internal rotation, poor external, I have the same thing). This causes you to reach a little with your left hand when you throw it. Your back foot stays back "in a bucket" as we call it in Boxing. It's not under your rear hip, and because your weight is already on the inside of your foot, you can't rotate it there from the outside of your foot like he does when he throws his rightt. But if you learn how to right hook the right way, that punch will be very very good for you because it uses internal rotation more. Same with the right uppercut, which I don't think you threw at all.

Your jab is weak, but it's a function of being hunched over. So it's not something you're being neglectful about. When you jab, try bending both your knees and slightly pointing them away from each other (external rotation, like the other guy there), your elevation will drop slightly. Then raise your right hand towards the target as casually as you're reaching for that thing out of the cupboard. At around the point of impact you push into the ground with your front foot and push your upper body slightly back, diagonally up. I know that's difficult to envision, but earlier in the thread Arni does his best to jab this way. You'll need that rear foot closer to being under your rear hip to do it properly, if you feel like you're reaching even for your jab sometimes, that's why.

Those adjustments should help. And I really appreciate the posting of footage.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Thanks for the feedback Sin. Always good to hear some advices from the pro. Im quite a lanky guy with long legs but only average reach, not to mention im a short-sighted, so i always feel a need to lower my centre of gravity and reach over when i punch. Hence how i often threw my rear hand that way. It is very frustrating to keep throwing punches like that. But i will try to use your advice as best as i can.

Edit: I still have a slight problem with my head movement. From times to times i keep getting hit by even when i try to shift weight from hips to hips to get the desirable head movement as you can see in the video. Anything i could do while practice to faciliate that?

Also, when you said bending the knee and have them slightly open away from each other when jabbing, could you elaborate more? i watched Arni's video and noticed that his rear knee rotates to the right while his front knee is either the same or slightly rotate to the left. Is that what you refers to?

 

[LZD]

Excellent thread, I read every post. I have a question for you, Sinister: Could you say something about how one should correctly transfer the weight for the rear uppercut? I was watching for it in earlier videos of Arni, specifically where he was shadow-boxing and you were providing instruction. I couldn't quite pick the series of events.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

Excellent thread, I read every post. I have a question for you, Sinister: Could you say something about how one should correctly transfer the weight for the rear uppercut? I was watching for it in earlier videos of Arni, specifically where he was shadow-boxing and you were providing instruction. I couldn't quite pick the series of events.

this interests me as well

 

[Sinister]

Thanks for the feedback Sin. Always good to hear some advices from the pro. Im quite a lanky guy with long legs but only average reach, not to mention im a short-sighted, so i always feel a need to lower my centre of gravity and reach over when i punch. Hence how i often threw my rear hand that way. It is very frustrating to keep throwing punches like that. But i will try to use your advice as best as i can.

Edit: I still have a slight problem with my head movement. From times to times i keep getting hit by even when i try to shift weight from hips to hips to get the desirable head movement as you can see in the video. Anything i could do while practice to faciliate that?

Also, when you said bending the knee and have them slightly open away from each other when jabbing, could you elaborate more? i watched Arni's video and noticed that his rear knee rotates to the right while his front knee is either the same or slightly rotate to the left. Is that what you refers to?

It's very difficult to describe how to facilitate head-movement via hip movement. But your foot placement has a lot to do with why you're in range to be hit. With your foot pointed more towards the opponent's center line, it'll give you a few more inches to work with. And yes, how Arni's knees slightly point away from each other when he dips for his jab is what I was referring to.

Excellent thread, I read every post. I have a question for you, Sinister: Could you say something about how one should correctly transfer the weight for the rear uppercut? I was watching for it in earlier videos of Arni, specifically where he was shadow-boxing and you were providing instruction. I couldn't quite pick the series of events.

The thing about this question is there's more than one rear uppercut. Arni normally would throw his rear uppercut from the fully-back position, and his head still on the right side. This is a good solid rear uppercut, but it depends on drawing the opponent in and is difficult to pull off when moving forward, unless the other guy is unskilled like in the sparring footage of him and he kept catching that kid with it repeatedly. And I like that version most to hook behind.

In the latter part of the shadowboxing video, and in the mitt-work, you're seeing me teach him a new uppercut he'd never thrown before. One done more like the soft right hand, where he steps slightly to his left and shifts over to that hip, bringing the uppercut behind that movement. Both are correct, and for different purposes.

 

[Handsy]

The proper posture in the boxing stance and keeping it while throwing has been one of my bigger discoveries (thanks to the board) to keep my game going.

I absolutely hate being off balance, for a missed punch or anything, because that

 

[Sinister]

That "straight left" from orthodox position is an old old punch. I call it a jab nowadays, because essentially in every way aside from positioning, it functions and looks like a jab. But in the days when it was used primarily, it was definitely called a "straight left" and thought of as its own separate technique.

 

[Handsy]

I guess I was hesitant in calling it a jab more out of semantics.

You say when it was used primarily..would you mind explaining for what (outside of jab principles) or why it's not as utilized today?

I *think* from Dadi's video "Analyzing Charley Burley", the jab is mentioned as the straight left, and in ...damn, but that boxing book written circa 1900...."Complete Boxer" maybe also refers to it as the straight left.

In my own little case anyway, I find it comes out like a slingshot if the left hip is properly loaded, with deceptive distancing, although I think footwork had a lot to do with that.

 

[Sinister]

By saying "primarily" I just meant that a lot of guys preferred use that punch as a lead as opposed to a standard jab. It's not used so much nowadays simply because it's not taught.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

By saying "primarily" I just meant that a lot of guys preferred use that punch as a lead as opposed to a standard jab. It's not used so much nowadays simply because it's not taught.

What's the difference between a straight lead hand and a standard jab?

 

[Lucas Coradini]

straight lead hand would be the last "1" in a 1-2-1 combo?

 

[Sinister]

Something like that.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

I like that punch a lot. I use a punch like the one you called the soft rear hand very often, and these two mix togheter real nice, if this makes any sense... People who spar with me keep guessing when I chamber my lead side... Maybe I whip that quick right, or maybe a stiff left

 

[Discipulus]

I like that punch a lot. I use a punch like the one you called the soft rear hand very often, and these two mix togheter real nice, if this makes any sense... People who spar with me keep guessing when I chamber my lead side... Maybe I whip that quick right, or maybe a stiff left

That's smart stuff right there. Good one.