- Joined
- Nov 15, 2010
- Messages
- 4,697
- Reaction score
- 0
I am more used to Muay Thai kind of kicks that use a more squared stance than this. I guess this is the perfect time to ask my friend who is a karateka on this.
Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch
- Thread starter TheStrikingGuy
- Start date
Thanks Sinister, and that's very true. Once my footwork gets fumbled up and I'm in sort of a 'panic' mode in terms of replanting myself properly, I definitely throw some awkward, offbalance good for nothing shots that open me up.
Man, the lead to the centerline is working wonders for my angling. I mean, I have lightyears to go, but I would always end up hop-stepping or slightly leaping or something which was no good and never worked on anyone who knew what they were doing. I knew the importance and ideas behind angles, but never how to go about creating them.
I am almost always the shorter fighter with short reach and short stubby legs, so angling is crucial for me, as well as smooth, fluid footwork leading inside. I used to explode to the inside with more tight, compact movements and speedy but faulty footwork, but as I went with better competition, when what as you said sufficed didn't work, I was pretty much battered down to defending and looking for counters, but completely reactive, not setting anything up etc.
Thanks again man. And for bringing the science back into the sweet science.
Man, the lead to the centerline is working wonders for my angling. I mean, I have lightyears to go, but I would always end up hop-stepping or slightly leaping or something which was no good and never worked on anyone who knew what they were doing. I knew the importance and ideas behind angles, but never how to go about creating them.
I am almost always the shorter fighter with short reach and short stubby legs, so angling is crucial for me, as well as smooth, fluid footwork leading inside. I used to explode to the inside with more tight, compact movements and speedy but faulty footwork, but as I went with better competition, when what as you said sufficed didn't work, I was pretty much battered down to defending and looking for counters, but completely reactive, not setting anything up etc.
Thanks again man. And for bringing the science back into the sweet science.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2005
- Messages
- 55,034
- Reaction score
- 36,575
Handsy, check out the training of a Viking thread. The other kid I post training footage of in there is very similar. He's very short, short arms, short legs, and needs to be inside. When he came to me he also tried to get in with a lot of dynamic movement. Being as he was initially taught D'Amato's peek-a-boo style, he wasn't half bad at it. But once he'd get a little tired from all the rushing, he became vulnerable. I worked on him for two weeks here, but later in the year he's moving here to develop into a Pro and I'll be refining things a lot further. But you can see the difference just from the first footage to the most recent.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2005
- Messages
- 55,034
- Reaction score
- 36,575
I like Muay Thai a lot, used to do it. So I don't consider it invalid by any means and a guy I used to train with fought out of a crouch but still had VERY good kicks. It's just a matter of seeing the Art that uses these principals the most.
Sinister,
I've been lurking the shit out of the "Viking" thread, beautiful stuff there too. Actually, his progression fueled me to relook at my own stuff. One of the videos you have of him sparring, where his opponent is throwing more wild arm punches, some connecting but nothing of consequence, I really liked his footwork and movement in there. Despite his build apparently being slightly off-balance, he is utilizing his body really well in there.
That's the issue I have with the peek-a-boo style also. Constant movement starts draining gas. Once I'm a wet rag on two feet, it gets worse becomes hands/arms start coming down, movement gets sloppy coupled with the peek-a-boo style I can get into a shitload of attacks from the hands, knees and feet I should be better positioned to look out for to begin with. I like it, but I prefer something more economically sound.
That sounds awesome, I hope all the best for him. With that kind of training and knowledge, as opposed to what most schools teach out there, he's stepping into battle fine-tuned and ready to go.
I've been lurking the shit out of the "Viking" thread, beautiful stuff there too. Actually, his progression fueled me to relook at my own stuff. One of the videos you have of him sparring, where his opponent is throwing more wild arm punches, some connecting but nothing of consequence, I really liked his footwork and movement in there. Despite his build apparently being slightly off-balance, he is utilizing his body really well in there.
That's the issue I have with the peek-a-boo style also. Constant movement starts draining gas. Once I'm a wet rag on two feet, it gets worse becomes hands/arms start coming down, movement gets sloppy coupled with the peek-a-boo style I can get into a shitload of attacks from the hands, knees and feet I should be better positioned to look out for to begin with. I like it, but I prefer something more economically sound.
That sounds awesome, I hope all the best for him. With that kind of training and knowledge, as opposed to what most schools teach out there, he's stepping into battle fine-tuned and ready to go.
I practice Muay Thai but our school puts the most emphasis on hands. I've been working on kicks from the crouch, but more often than not, they are set up from the hands anyway.
But kicks like teeps, front rounds etc. I find if I put emphasis on balance I'm able to get them out effectively while still in a strong posture.
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2010
- Messages
- 4,697
- Reaction score
- 0
I did think about how loaded the rear kicks would be because the weight is in the rear hips. I suppose the front kicks would be throw with the same weight shift principal as the punches. That will come with practice i suppose.
After revisiting a lot of the information in this thread again, I was just wondering why Louis and Robinson both seem to be leaning forward while the other boxers are all leaning back? Louis seems to hunched foward slightly, and judging from Robinson's position after throwing that right hand so was he. Is this hunch forward just a Blackburn thing?
See how Robinson and Louis both give the impression that they are leaning forward a bit, but there weight still looks like its back on that right hip and their head if off center. Maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me, but to me it seems like they are slightly hunched in comparison to the picture of Tom Hyre earlier in the thread and this one here of Jack Johnson.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2005
- Messages
- 55,034
- Reaction score
- 36,575
It's not your eyes playing tricks on you, it's different poses for photos. By poses I mean positions, because they're not just poses. Louis sometimes did this:
Utilizing a similar positioning as Johnson. And in poses sometimes did this:
Demonstrating the more defensive posture. Also keep in-mind, Johnson's style came from the bare-knuckle days. So did Blackburn's, but they were two different styles. Johnson was a defensive fighter. Keeping his head back was much more of a priority on the outside. Jack would neutralize you, then knock you out. Joe would just go right to you and knock you out.
Also, FWIW, I don't think Blackburn is the one who taught Robinson from the beginning. They knew each other, but I recall someone else handling Robinson. I think I can look it up. Robinson and Louis just had a few things in common. They also each did some photos with their left hip loaded, what was going on in those photos is they were both big left hook throwers. Like this one:
From the front it would look like he's leaning towards you, because he's loading that left hip to throw the hook.
Utilizing a similar positioning as Johnson. And in poses sometimes did this:
Demonstrating the more defensive posture. Also keep in-mind, Johnson's style came from the bare-knuckle days. So did Blackburn's, but they were two different styles. Johnson was a defensive fighter. Keeping his head back was much more of a priority on the outside. Jack would neutralize you, then knock you out. Joe would just go right to you and knock you out.
Also, FWIW, I don't think Blackburn is the one who taught Robinson from the beginning. They knew each other, but I recall someone else handling Robinson. I think I can look it up. Robinson and Louis just had a few things in common. They also each did some photos with their left hip loaded, what was going on in those photos is they were both big left hook throwers. Like this one:
From the front it would look like he's leaning towards you, because he's loading that left hip to throw the hook.
BrooklynBomber
The Champ is Here
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 9,069
- Reaction score
- 0
You may be thinking of George Gainford, Liu.
hahah damn.
These principles have really given me more understanding in a lot of areas. Since I normally fight out of a relatively side-on stance anyway, everything has really been integrating rather well. That post about different positioning is really vital. Being able to manipulate range almost separate from footwork is often so underlooked and underemphasized.
Regarding the right hand from this stance (which I
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2005
- Messages
- 55,034
- Reaction score
- 36,575
I really enjoy your posts.
In your first paragraph you kind of answer your own query unknowingly. Diagonally downward is how the weight is supposed to move, not necessarily forward. So not a whole lot of forward drive is needed. When you keep good posture, the slight dip in elevation is needed for defensive purposes. Fist goes towards the target while your head goes slightly down. This makes rolling easy, or hiding the next punch. The rear foot should only turn enough to facilitate the movement. So if you perform the motion slowly, outside rotation left, hip change, shoulder turn, arm extends, and knee drop. The foot turning is the last thing to happen...but if you're in the right position on the ball of the foot, then it's not likely going onto your toes is going to add anything. That turn of the rear foot is only to facilitate that movement, and be a precursor to the next one. If turning it over all the way doesn't add anything, it doesn't need to be done. The main difference between this right hand and the modern right hand is the defensive liability, and removing the habit of throwing it across one's chest when tired. The classic version is easy to do when tired, your body will recognize that the more you spar with it. Dadi has a saying, doing things right is only hard at the beginning, because your body is uncomfortable. It's been doing things wrong, but sufficiently so long it doesn't like using muscles and holding positions it's not used to. But as soon as it realizes the right way makes everything else easier, it'll adapt and want to do it that way all the time.
With me it's that I have stiff hips. They just don't externally rotate very well. I'm closer to being knock-kneed than bow-legged. Slightly bow-legged guys usually have problems with internal rotation, but tend to get very good natural leverage (their knees tend to line up over their toes well), and duck-footed guys are stuck in external rotation.
In a sense, everything is for power punching. But keeping the lead foot pointed at the center line is also about making the opponent respect distance, and have to work harder to get an angle than you do to defend yourself. If he's constantly under threat of that lead hand, and feels pressure from the lead foot, immediately you have the initiative. If that's what you're doing with your lead leg/knee/foot, it's very right.
Exaggeration is okay just to get how things are supposed to feel. I may have mentioned this already, but for instance, on the lead uppercut Dadi sometimes has students actually lift their lead foot off the ground when they throw it in shadowboxing. Just to show them how it's supposed to feel. Sparring is different. Depending on how it's constructed, sparring is either productive or reinforcing. Ideally, sparring is the polishing of the steel. It should already be shaped, it isn't time for it to be hammered repeatedly. In other words, full speed sparring isn't the time to try whole new motions and postures, they should be worked on in drills and on the bags first so they become more reflexive. Things like mitt work is the hammering of the steel, like you see me constantly correcting Arni, banging out imperfections, making motions smaller, less exaggerated, showing him what directions to go, what punches to use when.
In your first paragraph you kind of answer your own query unknowingly. Diagonally downward is how the weight is supposed to move, not necessarily forward. So not a whole lot of forward drive is needed. When you keep good posture, the slight dip in elevation is needed for defensive purposes. Fist goes towards the target while your head goes slightly down. This makes rolling easy, or hiding the next punch. The rear foot should only turn enough to facilitate the movement. So if you perform the motion slowly, outside rotation left, hip change, shoulder turn, arm extends, and knee drop. The foot turning is the last thing to happen...but if you're in the right position on the ball of the foot, then it's not likely going onto your toes is going to add anything. That turn of the rear foot is only to facilitate that movement, and be a precursor to the next one. If turning it over all the way doesn't add anything, it doesn't need to be done. The main difference between this right hand and the modern right hand is the defensive liability, and removing the habit of throwing it across one's chest when tired. The classic version is easy to do when tired, your body will recognize that the more you spar with it. Dadi has a saying, doing things right is only hard at the beginning, because your body is uncomfortable. It's been doing things wrong, but sufficiently so long it doesn't like using muscles and holding positions it's not used to. But as soon as it realizes the right way makes everything else easier, it'll adapt and want to do it that way all the time.
With me it's that I have stiff hips. They just don't externally rotate very well. I'm closer to being knock-kneed than bow-legged. Slightly bow-legged guys usually have problems with internal rotation, but tend to get very good natural leverage (their knees tend to line up over their toes well), and duck-footed guys are stuck in external rotation.
In a sense, everything is for power punching. But keeping the lead foot pointed at the center line is also about making the opponent respect distance, and have to work harder to get an angle than you do to defend yourself. If he's constantly under threat of that lead hand, and feels pressure from the lead foot, immediately you have the initiative. If that's what you're doing with your lead leg/knee/foot, it's very right.
Exaggeration is okay just to get how things are supposed to feel. I may have mentioned this already, but for instance, on the lead uppercut Dadi sometimes has students actually lift their lead foot off the ground when they throw it in shadowboxing. Just to show them how it's supposed to feel. Sparring is different. Depending on how it's constructed, sparring is either productive or reinforcing. Ideally, sparring is the polishing of the steel. It should already be shaped, it isn't time for it to be hammered repeatedly. In other words, full speed sparring isn't the time to try whole new motions and postures, they should be worked on in drills and on the bags first so they become more reflexive. Things like mitt work is the hammering of the steel, like you see me constantly correcting Arni, banging out imperfections, making motions smaller, less exaggerated, showing him what directions to go, what punches to use when.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,248
- Reaction score
- 0
It just occur to me today while utilizing this move that Mayweather does this often, correct?
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2010
- Messages
- 4,697
- Reaction score
- 0
Sinister, somehow i keep getting my neck strained whenever im in the stance for too long. How should i put my chin down properly?
Sinister do you believe the way the tall viking is stood on your first videos and the way Gustafsson stands and i've seen a few others do it, is it better to have a stance and guard like this to be able to use your reach effectively? As opposed to a high guard where I find I let my opponents in too close? I just wonder about the low hands. I understand you keep the right up near the chin but the left stays low just below chest level. I've worded the question quite weird but is this style something that should be utilized by a tall fighter? (6"4)
(40 seconds onwards)
(40 seconds onwards)
