Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

[Strykerx]

Ah yes, the "soft" right hand. It's a very difficult punch to explain because it isn't really soft, but it's softer than a right hand dealt from the back foot. The trick is to shift to the lead hip first so the head moves to the other side, then the trunk rotates a little (rear shoulder comes closer to the lead knee), and the punch is fired at the target not across the body. This punch is used primarily to secure an angle, or if done properly, it can load a nice hook and a HARD right can follow. Dadi throws it as a left because he's also a Southpaw, and I call it "the no-risk left hand"...because when a Southpaw does it right we end up outside the wall on an orthodox fighter (beyond the lead foot to the outside), so there's practically no way to counter it.

Duran did this same thing, Ray Arcel taught him this. Apparently this is a lost technique

 

[Sinister]

You mean Freddie Brown taught it to him. Brown was the actual skill wizard for Duran, Arcel more the "fight plan" guy.

I have some videos of me taking Arni on the mitts. It's just a matter of them uploading. I'll have them up shortly, and you guys can see a bit more of how I work. But I'm going to post them in the Vikings thread, because well, it's me training a Viking.

 

[Zephyros]

Thats actually not what I was referring to, but I was intrigued by that maneuver as well. Practiced it a few times, trying to get a feel for it. Would be useful to gain space.


2:05 Opponent comes forward with 1-2, times it by shifting weight onto the left

2:44 jumping left hook, again shifts onto the left to avoid the right hand


The reason why I wonder about timing those straight shots and loading onto the left hip, is that lots of people throw their rights with a bit of an angle, so how do we avoid running right into a right hand? Is it baiting them to throw a right across their body? Where should our feet be positioned?

I also notice a common position in this stance is positioning the opponent to the right of your left (lead) foot (I can probably post some more detailed pictures of the positioning later) where it seems to be an optimal 'zone' for power punching, where you can bait the opponent with head positioning, slip attacks, and remain in range for counter punching. Can you elaborate on the finer points of this position? What are vulnerabilities that we should be aware of? It's almost like being squared up, where the side-on angle is taken away (defense), but there are more offensive opportunities.


Hm, the fighter in red's defensive movements were less linear than the in first video. Thanks for posting that. Definitely gives a clearer idea of the concepts here. The kid in blue was thoroughly outboxed; he came across someone that just throwing harder and faster didn't work, and his aggression was quickly neutralized. The awkwardness in going against another southpaw probably didn't help. But it was a precise comment Sinister, when you talked about how there's no such thing as boxing without getting hit. Lately I've been falling into that trap of waiting for an ideal shot when i should be wading in and trading more. When I didn't know any better I used to substitute stamina for defense; I have to return to center a bit, as it were.

 

[Sinister]

Ironically, it's the same maneuver that facilitates the soft right hand, he's just not throwing a soft right hand off of the move. In the first sequence he gets that body-shot, in the second he throws the left hook that the position loads. One of the things I'd actually been working on with him is adding a short left of his own when he wants to cut that angle, but that's over-complicating things here.

It is baiting them to throw the right across the body, yes. This isn't the sort of move you'd use on someone who is very very sharp. Or at least, not in the first round. You have to become familiar with when your opponent is out of position, and use this move to exploit it. Foot position is relative to their foot position. With the lead foot ALWAYS pointing at the center line, of course.

The lead foot being aimed at the center line is the key to getting a guy into the proper range for your power punches. Trainers always tell their charges to move away from an opponent's power hand, and of course, the other guy's trainer will tell them the same thing. So what do we end up with? Two guys who can never land a power punch? That's kind of stupid, in a logical way, though. It's told because it sounds right, but how do you get to a guy who isn't cooperating because he's forever trying to flee from your power hand? There's a lot of pseudo answers to this, like learn to hook better. But that's an offensive, energy-costly act. It comes with a laundry list of vulnerabilities because you have to open up. I mentioned the key earlier in the thread I believe...think of your lead hand as if there were a knife in it. You always want two things: 1) the knife in line with your lead toe, 2) the knife pointed directly at the other guy. So say for instance the other guy moves to your left, you point the lead toe at his center using external knee rotation (as long as the back foot remains solid, you shouldn't lose balance), then correct the back foot once you've got the knife on him again. It should always take him twice the amount of work to get around you as it takes you to keep that knife on him. It won't take long for him to see that moving away is arbitrary, he's under threat no matter what. Now you have the initiative. Your defense should not be compromised, however. Because if you do this and shift your weight from hip to hip at the same time, your head will be moving as you threaten him. That's one thing Arni isn't very good at, moving his head WHILE he punches. I worked him a lot on that, which you'll see shortly.

So again, blows may land but they won't have the same consequences as the blows you'll land. Dadi himself also sparred that same kid and the Coach got upset because Dadi just kept walking right at him and ignoring his punches. The Coach stopped the session and said "hey man, if you're just gonna stand there and take punches, we'll stop it. That's not sparring." Dadi replied: "It's not sparring now because he's not hitting me. He's just pumping his fists. He needs to do the work. If you don't want me to act like a heavy bag don't have him treat me like one."

 

[NeverMind]

Thanks heaps for this Jack, great work, and as always, thanks for the very informative posts too, Sinister. I've got a question about getting in the proper stance though. Sin, you say to bend at the hip instead of at the waist, do you have to stick your ass out a bitch in order to do this? After watching those sparring videos of Arni you posted, I noticed he stood pretty upright , and he wasn't sitting back on his butt much at all from what I could tell. I ask this because when I sticking my butt back is the only time I seem to get movement in the hip joint. I am confused about the actual position and getting into it. I'm not quite seeing this bend at the hip that you are talking about. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[crossFTW]

No.

ok thanks

 

[Sinister]

Thanks heaps for this Jack, great work, and as always, thanks for the very informative posts too, Sinister. I've got a question about getting in the proper stance though. Sin, you say to bend at the hip instead of at the waist, do you have to stick your ass out a bitch in order to do this? After watching those sparring videos of Arni you posted, I noticed he stood pretty upright , and he wasn't sitting back on his butt much at all from what I could tell. I ask this because when I sticking my butt back is the only time I seem to get movement in the hip joint. I am confused about the actual position and getting into it. I'm not quite seeing this bend at the hip that you are talking about. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What you're seeing with Arni is postural problems despite his good form. For one, he's got WAY too much muscle in his upper-shoulders. Very top-heavy in that regard. Because of this he's sway-backed. Being sway-backed makes bending at his hip difficult unless he's doing it frontally. And he can't stick his ass out much because he doesn't have an ass. However, even if your ass is out a little (which is should be), your back should be straight. This protects the lower-back from strain and from doing all the work of upper-body movement. If your hips are stiff, you'll remain in compromised positions until you do the proper exercises to loosen them and make them more flexible and mobile. Arni is also slightly bow-legged (stuck in external rotation when in his stance). Dadi's done A LOT of work to correct this, and he's a lot better than when he used to be, but it still results in his stance widening more than it needs to every now and again.

 

[Strykerx]

What you're seeing with Arni is postural problems despite his good form. For one, he's got WAY too much muscle in his upper-shoulders. Very top-heavy in that regard. Because of this he's sway-backed. Being sway-backed makes bending at his hip difficult unless he's doing it frontally. And he can't stick his ass out much because he doesn't have an ass. However, even if your ass is out a little (which is should be), your back should be straight. This protects the lower-back from strain and from doing all the work of upper-body movement. If your hips are stiff, you'll remain in compromised positions until you do the proper exercises to loosen them and make them more flexible and mobile. Arni is also slightly bow-legged (stuck in external rotation when in his stance). Dadi's done A LOT of work to correct this, and he's a lot better than when he used to be, but it still results in his stance widening more than it needs to every now and again.

Due to Arni's build do you think his top heaviness which continue to throw off his posture even with Dadi's corrections?

Also in regards to Dadi, what he meant when he was talking to the kid's coaches is the kid isn't punching properly just arm punches right? I have the video of it saved on my computer but couldn't make out what the two were saying. Would you say Dadi is standing correctly in comparison to Arni? I recall Dadi being rusty but still...

 

[Sinister]

Due to Arni's build do you think his top heaviness which continue to throw off his posture even with Dadi's corrections?

Also in regards to Dadi, what he meant when he was talking to the kid's coaches is the kid isn't punching properly just arm punches right? I have the video of it saved on my computer but couldn't make out what the two were saying. Would you say Dadi is standing correctly in comparison to Arni? I recall Dadi being rusty but still...

Dadi's work with Arni is continuous. As I mentioned in the other thread, he wants to move down a weight class. He's GOING to have to lose some muscle to do it. So Dadi's job is to see to it that he loses muscle in the appropriate places. In other words, his strength program changes. This should correct things as much as possible, but it's likely he'll always stand a little crooked.

He meant both. The other guy wasn't throwing punches the right way, and thus, they were just arm punches. And yes, Dadi isn't a fighter, so he doesn't train. But everything he does when he's not tired is fundamentally correct.

 

[NeverMind]

What you're seeing with Arni is postural problems despite his good form. For one, he's got WAY too much muscle in his upper-shoulders. Very top-heavy in that regard. Because of this he's sway-backed. Being sway-backed makes bending at his hip difficult unless he's doing it frontally. And he can't stick his ass out much because he doesn't have an ass. However, even if your ass is out a little (which is should be), your back should be straight. This protects the lower-back from strain and from doing all the work of upper-body movement. If your hips are stiff, you'll remain in compromised positions until you do the proper exercises to loosen them and make them more flexible and mobile. Arni is also slightly bow-legged (stuck in external rotation when in his stance). Dadi's done A LOT of work to correct this, and he's a lot better than when he used to be, but it still results in his stance widening more than it needs to every now and again.

Any recommended exercises or stretches to help loosen the hips? Luckily, I have a big Rampage ass but my hips I think are pretty tight.

 

[Sinister]

There's a lot of stuff that can help. Goblet squats, side-laying crabs, knee-lifts done properly. But it's a long list and honestly it's best done under supervision until you know what you're doing. If you do it wrong for a long time, all that happens is you end up in another wrong position.

 

[Sinister]

Earlier in the thread we discussed how Ray Robinson threw his right hand. I couldn't find a decent photo of him from the waist down, and this was unexpected...but recently a photographer was practicing at my Gym and took some shots of me. Now, I'm a Southpaw, so it's my left hand, but you'll get the idea:

Now the thing to note in the photo above is that I personally have a problem with external rotation. In other words my knees tend to fold inward too much. So my right knee should be pointed a bit more towards my right side. If it did, you'd see more of my inner-thigh just like Robinson's in the photo I posted earlier. That would enable a better angle for me to move either right, or back (but not straight back, back and to my left) after the punch landed, or didn't. As it is even in this photo, I'm JUST a smidge too head-on. A novice won't make much of it, but someone smart will.

Here's the side-view:

Now, say I wanted to throw my hook after. Looks tricky, right? It's simpler than it seems, external rotation. Point my left knee away from me turn my right hip, right foot/knee/shoulder follow, weight moves to the back foot and BLAMMO.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Earlier in the thread we discussed how Ray Robinson threw his right hand. I couldn't find a decent photo of him from the waist down, and this was unexpected...but recently a photographer was practicing at my Gym and took some shots of me. Now, I'm a Southpaw, so it's my left hand, but you'll get the idea:

Now the thing to note in the photo above is that I personally have a problem with external rotation. In other words my knees tend to fold inward too much. So my right knee should be pointed a bit more towards my right side. If it did, you'd see more of my inner-thigh just like Robinson's in the photo I posted earlier. That would enable a better angle for me to move either right, or back (but not straight back, back and to my left) after the punch landed, or didn't. As it is even in this photo, I'm JUST a smidge too head-on. A novice won't make much of it, but someone smart will.

Here's the side-view:

Now, say I wanted to throw my hook after. Looks tricky, right? It's simpler than it seems, external rotation. Point my left knee away from me turn my right hip, right foot/knee/shoulder follow, weight moves to the back foot and BLAMMO.

When you shift weight with the hook, you only shift a bit to get the hook going BUT the weight still more or less on the backfoot, and the weight will back to the rear hip to load the next punch, yes?

 

[Sinister]

That is correct.

 

[Handsy]

Beast thread, should turn into a sticky.

I've heard that the power from a rear cross comes from the rotational twist of your body (don't know if it's true or false, seems to make sense but I've heard different theories from different coaches etc.). I started throwing the cross accordingly but found my body off balance at the point of impact because my lead foot was turned slightly rotated inwards (from the knees of course).

I tried using the SRR method of the right, externally rotating it outwards on delivery, and it felt fantastic, I felt my core snap my body right into it, and it didn't shorten my punch which I have a bad habit of doing. It was just on the bag, didn't have a chance to use it in sparring yet, but it felt very natural and one of my favorite aspects of it, is that you can step off/away at an angle automatically. Great stuff.

 

[Handsy]

Ironically, it's the same maneuver that facilitates the soft right hand, he's just not throwing a soft right hand off of the move. In the first sequence he gets that body-shot, in the second he throws the left hook that the position loads. One of the things I'd actually been working on with him is adding a short left of his own when he wants to cut that angle, but that's over-complicating things here.

It is baiting them to throw the right across the body, yes. This isn't the sort of move you'd use on someone who is very very sharp. Or at least, not in the first round. You have to become familiar with when your opponent is out of position, and use this move to exploit it. Foot position is relative to their foot position. With the lead foot ALWAYS pointing at the center line, of course.

The lead foot being aimed at the center line is the key to getting a guy into the proper range for your power punches. Trainers always tell their charges to move away from an opponent's power hand, and of course, the other guy's trainer will tell them the same thing. So what do we end up with? Two guys who can never land a power punch? That's kind of stupid, in a logical way, though. It's told because it sounds right, but how do you get to a guy who isn't cooperating because he's forever trying to flee from your power hand? There's a lot of pseudo answers to this, like learn to hook better. But that's an offensive, energy-costly act. It comes with a laundry list of vulnerabilities because you have to open up. I mentioned the key earlier in the thread I believe...think of your lead hand as if there were a knife in it. You always want two things: 1) the knife in line with your lead toe, 2) the knife pointed directly at the other guy. So say for instance the other guy moves to your left, you point the lead toe at his center using external knee rotation (as long as the back foot remains solid, you shouldn't lose balance), then correct the back foot once you've got the knife on him again. It should always take him twice the amount of work to get around you as it takes you to keep that knife on him. It won't take long for him to see that moving away is arbitrary, he's under threat no matter what. Now you have the initiative. Your defense should not be compromised, however. Because if you do this and shift your weight from hip to hip at the same time, your head will be moving as you threaten him. That's one thing Arni isn't very good at, moving his head WHILE he punches. I worked him a lot on that, which you'll see shortly.

So again, blows may land but they won't have the same consequences as the blows you'll land. Dadi himself also sparred that same kid and the Coach got upset because Dadi just kept walking right at him and ignoring his punches. The Coach stopped the session and said "hey man, if you're just gonna stand there and take punches, we'll stop it. That's not sparring." Dadi replied: "It's not sparring now because he's not hitting me. He's just pumping his fists. He needs to do the work. If you don't want me to act like a heavy bag don't have him treat me like one."

This is pure gold. I've started working on this intently and so far, just in drills, it's been beautiful. People that make my footwork slow down are starting to have to leap around to try to create angles on me, while I'm chilling keeping it simple. I'm more of a simplicity is sophistication kind of guy so I enjoy learning principles that work for anyone on any level, if followed properly.

 

[Sinister]

This is simply correct boxing. What youre seeing and feeling is how much of a difference it makes when you do whats right, as opposed to what can suffice.

 

[Handsy]

Ha, well said.

For me anyway, what can suffice often drains me and feels too...forceful. I'm a believer of hard work and intensity, but when it comes to actual fighting, especially from the ground base foundations like footwork, I don't think smoothness, fluidity and positioning can be overlooked.

Also, that is the funny thing about footwork and how it's taught for the most part. We learn to move away from the power hand (not always of course), and then you get into a game of dosey-doe-ing.

I guess the point is you keep his centerline at your range whilst keeping yours out/off of his?

So, let me ask, if I want to create an angle (orthodox on orthodox) stepping forward to my right , I have to make sure I step correctly first with my right foot so my left can adjust accordingly to his centerline while I'm still in balance?

I know it's a specific question but I'm really just asking the general idea behind it.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Thanks for answer. After a couple of session of shadowboxing and slowing doing cominations with your advice about using your trunk, it was so smooth with the weight shifting that i have to do the combinations slower to see my weight shift from hip to hip to make sure that i shift weight properly. Incredible stuffs. Now if i only can add kicks to this stance without feeling awkward ;_;

 

[Sinister]

Ha, well said.

For me anyway, what can suffice often drains me and feels too...forceful. I'm a believer of hard work and intensity, but when it comes to actual fighting, especially from the ground base foundations like footwork, I don't think smoothness, fluidity and positioning can be overlooked.

Also, that is the funny thing about footwork and how it's taught for the most part. We learn to move away from the power hand (not always of course), and then you get into a game of dosey-doe-ing.

I guess the point is you keep his centerline at your range whilst keeping yours out/off of his?

So, let me ask, if I want to create an angle (orthodox on orthodox) stepping forward to my right , I have to make sure I step correctly first with my right foot so my left can adjust accordingly to his centerline while I'm still in balance?

I know it's a specific question but I'm really just asking the general idea behind it.

Yes that is the point. Optimizing angles at all times. A good opponent will make you constantly re-evaluate yours. And yes, stepping right the right way is a tricky maneuver until you get the movement right. There's a couple of different ways it can be done depending on what type of punch you want to throw and what range you want to be at. But the object is to facilitate still facing the center line. The moment you lose sight of that, the opponent is free to move wherever they want and your only deterrent to them will be an ill-placed punch.

Thanks for answer. After a couple of session of shadowboxing and slowing doing cominations with your advice about using your trunk, it was so smooth with the weight shifting that i have to do the combinations slower to see my weight shift from hip to hip to make sure that i shift weight properly. Incredible stuffs. Now if i only can add kicks to this stance without feeling awkward ;_;

A lot of old school Karateka kicked from similar stances. I don't remember where I mentioned it, but I had a client (for nutrition, but he's also a fighter) here from the UK. When he saw what Dadi and I teach he said: "all this stuff has so much more in common with the Karate I used to do than with the boxing being taught at our MMA gym." Dadi himself used to do Karate as well.