Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

It seems to me that the Machida brothers "fold" their rear hip in the way you describe, Sinister. What do you think?

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Of course Chinzo here is standing with his feet at about 135 degrees from one another rather than 45, but the straight upper back and hip position bears some similarities to an old-timey boxing stance. Perhaps this is what those students you mentioned meant when they said what you taught was similar to the concepts they learned in Karate rather than most boxing gyms.
 
Another thing about your particular stance. Don't hunch your shoulders forward. Shoulders back, chest up. This will allow your trunk to support the weight of your arms when you move them. And it'll discourage arm punching, as well as protect your neck and upper-back from being pulled. When you want to throw alternating punches, don't use your lower back, rotate your trunk at the hips. Your shoulders should follow-suit naturally, then extend the punch. If you want shoulder protection, when you tilt back onto the back foot a little, the lead shoulder should raise on its own.

This is really solid advice. I think it explains alot of my shoulder fatigue. I have a real problem hunching my shoulders, since I was taught (mistakenly) chin down, instead of chin back.

How can I fix the shoulder hunch? I imagine just hours of slow shadowboxing? Anything else? And drills? Exercises?
 
It seems to me that the Machida brothers "fold" their rear hip in the way you describe, Sinister. What do you think?

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Of course Chinzo here is standing with his feet at about 135 degrees from one another rather than 45, but the straight upper back and hip position bears some similarities to an old-timey boxing stance. Perhaps this is what those students you mentioned meant when they said what you taught was similar to the concepts they learned in Karate rather than most boxing gyms.

I don't think Sinister will feel very flattered with the comparison, but when he mentioned fencing, Machda immediately came to my mind. Not because of Rogan's bullshit, but when Lyoto sprung to the scene I ran across /at least/ two blog posts by fencing pros being mesmerized at how close the footwork, stance and tag game were close to what they did.

It's no coincidence, either. These things ultimately spring from armed fighting, which was the best real life laboratory for many centuries. Chinese Xingyiquan is, whatever you may think of it, is a very interesting side example of this phenomenom, because it's their "boxing" but sprung out of lance fighting instead of sword fighting.
 
I don't think Sinister will feel very flattered with the comparison, but when he mentioned fencing, Machda immediately came to my mind. Not because of Rogan's bullshit, but when Lyoto sprung to the scene I ran across /at least/ two blog posts by fencing pros being mesmerized at how close the footwork, stance and tag game were close to what they did.

It's no coincidence, either. These things ultimately spring from armed fighting, which was the best real life laboratory for many centuries. Chinese Xingyiquan is, whatever you may think of it, is a very interesting side example of this phenomenom, because it's their "boxing" but sprung out of lance fighting instead of sword fighting.

The footwork and movements of Lyoto are very much like modern fencing. Sinister is fond of comparing good boxing with the old school Spanish school of rapier fencing, which is a little different from the modern foil and epee stuff, although those bear a few more similarities to the Italian school of swordplay.

The Spanish fencing masters, rather than springing in and out, really focused on finding angles from which to attack effectively and, most importantly, safely. Probably a reaction to the deadliness of rapier fighting, which very often killed or seriously wounded both combatants. So the emphasis on angles and footwork arose from the need to constantly threaten and yet remain safe from the threat of your opponent. Leaping in and relying on speed and surprise (like the Machidas do) wouldn't work well for a lethal fight with rapiers, because you might be leaping on to your opponent's blade. Like so:

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One of the most interesting similarities between boxers like Joe Louis and old school fencers, both Spanish and Italian, is the idea of threat. In fencing, you create a threat for your opponent by adopting any number of wards. In German longsword the typical wards are Ochs (the ox), which is a ward that threatens from above; Pflug (the plow), which threatens from beneath. Vom Tag (from the roof), which also threatens from above, albeit with a strike rather than a point; and Alber (the fool), in which the blade is held low, both creating a virtual threat from beneath and a false opening for your opponent.

In rapier, you can see some of the wards or guards in these illustration. I'm afraid I'm not as familiar with rapier terminology as I am with longsword and sword and buckler, but the concepts are the same.

A rapier and dagger equivalent of Pflug, on the left, versus the equivalent of Alber, on the right. An upwards threat versus another upwards threat, albeit a less ready one that presents a false opening to the opponent. You can even see in the fighters stances the similarity to a boxers crouch or, especially in terms of foot placement, with the stance of Chinzo in my other post up there.

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A rapier and dagger equivalent of Langort on the left, a guard from sword and buckler meaning "long point" that creates a constant, reaching threat, opposing the rapier and dagger equivalent of Ochs.

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These rapier wards can be compared to boxers like Joe Louis because of the various threats that they seek to offer their opponents. Unlike swordsmen, Joe's threats were virtual: a short overhand right that threatened from above, and a sneaky jab that threatened from beneath. The hands aren't held out like blades, but the threat is there all the same, and boxers have the advantage of being able to offer multiple threats at once, as well as create false openings to capitalize on their positioning.

And finally, here's an awesome, gruesome riposte from Capo Ferro which is the grisly equivalent of the slip and jab to the body as a counter to the jab, and the reason why getting in a fist fight is so much nicer than going up against a fellow with a sword.

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Awesome post. Always was interested in fencing as well. Never took it though because with limited time, other interests just took precedent. What did you mean about virtual threats with the fists, as opposed to swords, exactly? With a sword you can accidentally impale yourself or cause damage when closing distance, whereas punches need some sort of distance or movement to cause an impact?
 
Awesome post. Always was interested in fencing as well. Never took it though because with limited time, other interests just took precedent. What did you mean about virtual threats with the fists, as opposed to swords, exactly? With a sword you can accidentally impale yourself or cause damage when closing distance, whereas punches need some sort of distance or movement to cause an impact?

Yes, that's it basically. The tip of the sword is right there, actively threatening your advance. Whereas the fists are ready to hit you, but not actually there to get around. In some ways this is better, and in some ways not.

The problem with modern sport fencing is that, like kendo, it bears very little similarity to the realities of fencing with swords. In most modern fencing matches, were the swords actual smallswords, both combatants would die. It's about who scores first, same with kendo. It's all about speed.

I think that "double kills" shouldn't count, for purposes of actually teaching the art of fencing, and not "electric metal stick tag." If both people get tagged significantly enough to score, then the point should be moot. You should make the kill and live to tell the tale, figuratively speaking, anyway.

There are, however, a lot more groups that teach historical fencing these days. HEMA (historical European martial arts) are growing, and I think that's a great thing. Because the martial arts of Asia have been fairly well preserved, at least in the public consciousness, whereas most Westerners probably haven't even fathomed that their forebears had effective, deadly martial systems of their own.
 
Jabbing is nice, but teeping keeps them so much farther away. And what's this I hear about "no holding and hitting?" :icon_lol:

Seriously, it is tempting. I may someday find myself more of a boxer than a nakmuay, but that's largely due to the fact that there don't seem to be as many Muay Thai guys around here with the sort of intellect for fighting and love of analyzing styles that the boxers around here show.

Still, I love my switch kicks and step through knees too much to give up Muay Thai entirely. Just boxing on the side for now. :wink:

Also probably because the guys with the most intimate knowledge on MT are Thai, and they are forced to simplify how they teach to foreigners with broken english and body language.

It would be really cool if we had a Muay Thai version of Sinister here on the boards though!
 
Also probably because the guys with the most intimate knowledge on MT are Thai, and they are forced to simplify how they teach to foreigners with broken english and body language.

It would be really cool if we had a Muay Thai version of Sinister here on the boards though!

I've never seen a MT fight that didn't involve standing and banging. Its no wonder y the MT guys who don't like getting hit as much all tend to start cross training boxing
 
I've never seen a MT fight that didn't involve standing and banging. Its no wonder y the MT guys who don't like getting hit as much all tend to start cross training boxing

Never?



Granted, Samart was a boxer, but that was after his Muay Thai career. And I'm sick of talking about Saenchai, anyway. :wink:
 
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My hypothesis for the difference in footwork and movement is that MuayThai emphasizes countering and using your opponent's openings, timing and flaws against them, as opposed to volume of attacks, such as the Dutch style MuayThai. So it really emphasizes clean technique. Also kicks have a much larger attack radius, and you only need to move your base very little (well, in comparison) to change targets, attack from different angles, catch kicks, check kicks, etc.
 
Also probably because the guys with the most intimate knowledge on MT are Thai, and they are forced to simplify how they teach to foreigners with broken english and body language.

It would be really cool if we had a Muay Thai version of Sinister here on the boards though!

Never?



Granted, Samart was a boxer, but that was after his Muay Thai career. And I'm sick of talking about Saenchai, anyway. :wink:


I should correct myself, I have never seen it. I don't doubt there are guys who employ a more "slick" style to MT however it doesnt change the fact that the majority stand and bang
 
Sinister is it okay to have forward lean and a bit of dipping when shifting to the left side of the hip (to slip a cross from orthodox)?
 
No more forward than the lead foot is.
 
Hey Sinister, could you cover the basic of the uppercut in this stance as well? I think the theead had covered the straights and the hooks already.

Also, with the hook how do you shift weight? Does the weight shift when throwing hooks is the same as when throw a straight?
 
With Zephyros' comment about the angled right hand when he shifts to the right leg, look at :31 and :38 I think.

Can you break down this move for us? It seems difficult to shoot this punch with your weight forward on you left foot. Is it just like a right jab?
 
Ah yes, the "soft" right hand. It's a very difficult punch to explain because it isn't really soft, but it's softer than a right hand dealt from the back foot. The trick is to shift to the lead hip first so the head moves to the other side, then the trunk rotates a little (rear shoulder comes closer to the lead knee), and the punch is fired at the target not across the body. This punch is used primarily to secure an angle, or if done properly, it can load a nice hook and a HARD right can follow. Dadi throws it as a left because he's also a Southpaw, and I call it "the no-risk left hand"...because when a Southpaw does it right we end up outside the wall on an orthodox fighter (beyond the lead foot to the outside), so there's practically no way to counter it.
 
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