Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

[TheStrikingGuy]

Hey guys,
I normally post pieces that I have written for BE, but I don't think there's much of a boxing community on there. This is a piece from my own blog so as promised I'll post the whole thing If you really like it please head over to my site and check out the others: www.FightsGoneBy.com

Also I love any discussion brought to the table, and I would love to hear the elements of Louis' game that you particularly enjoyed. This is going to be a series but I'm not decided on how the parts will break down yet!

Cheers,
Jack

I have been promising to write some detailed pieces on Joe Louis for some time. Very few fighters in any discipline have stylistically affected my own sparring, training and teaching as much as Joe Louis has. Why did I fall in love with Louis' style? I was interested in knockouts, yes, but I was interested in fighters who knocked their opponents out, without getting hurt on the way. Louis' style - though it is called textbook by many great coaches including Freddie Roach - is still not utilized today to the same effect Louis utilized it at his best. Boxing has, no doubt, changed - but the rise of Mixed Martial Arts where gloves cannot simply be held to one's cheeks to shield blows has drawn more attention to the subtle techniques that made Louis great such as the dipping jab.

The base of Louis' style was his crouch, which has sometimes been referred to as the Blackburn crouch, a name which I very much like. Jack Blackburn is an incredibly interesting figure in the history of boxing, having run a moderately successful career with almost 150 fights he wound up serving a prison sentence from 1909 - 1913 for murder. Blackburn was no doubt a controversial figure, which made the decision by Louis' early management to put Louis in the hands of Blackburn even more curious. Their main concern was to make Louis appear meek, mild mannered, and respectful - the anti Jack Johnson - yet a man who served time for murder was his closest confident. Blackburn not only nurtured Joe Louis, but abandoned his older, less athletic prospect, Jersey Joe Walcott, to do so.

Later in Blackburn's life, a young Sugar Ray Robinson began to attend Joe Louis' training camps and was reportedly the only one willing to go fishing on the lake with Blackburn despite having no interest in it. In his autobiography, Robinson recounts with a moving enthusiasm, how he used to accompany Jack Blackburn just to hear Blackburn talk about boxing. With Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott and Ray Robinson all under the direct influence of Blackburn, it is arguable that his training produced the savviest stable of fighters of any coach to date!

One common feature of these three Blackburn fighters is their stance. While Joe Louis shuffled back and forth, Sugar Ray Robinson danced to his left all night, and Jersey Joe Walcott stepped across himself with either leg and turned his back multiple times in a fight, they all engaged in a very similar, technically excellent stance.

Notice in these two images of Louis (one seems to be southpaw, I'm unsure if it is mirrored, Louis rarely switched stances) how he carries his hips turned back - making his rear hand's path a long one but placing him almost sideways on. Additionally, he is bent forward at the waist - taking his head off of the centreline and making it very hard to reach with right hands. This means that his lead hand may be held lower - making it harder to see coming and adding power to it by linking it's motion more fully with the movement of his body. The tendency in many fighters who fight with their hands high is to jab from the arm alone - Louis, Robinson and Walcott all carried their lead and low and stepped in with their weight behind their jab.

Notice also that Louis' rear hand is not positioned up by his chin or ****ed to punch, it is loose and free, ready to parry or check the opponent's lead hand. This is not laziness in the photos - Louis' rear hand was genuinely that relaxed, but it rarely stayed still for long. The truth of the Blackburn crouch is that offense from it is performed mainly with a stiff jab - but this is led by an active, adaptive right hand. Louis would parry his opponents jabs, looking for openings, or cover their lead hand and step in behind a combination - or be ready to block inside a lead hook and tie his opponent up. Take a look at the first few minutes of Louis' match with Nathan Mann.



You will notice that Louis stifles Mann's attempts to "establishing the jab" in the opening minutes- dipping under it, or parrying it, or performing both for safety's sake. This match has an uncharacteristically slow start from Louis - who gets clipped several times, but as he warms up it's a vintage performance from the Brown Bomber. After the 2:00 mark, Louis really finds his stride - looking comfortable and even nonchalant as he walks Mann down. By placing the body almost on a knife edge, with the lead shoulder being the closest point to the opponent, the Blackburn crouch greatly increases the skill in jabbing exchanges - taking away the need for great speed. You will notice that Louis' feet are not swift, in fact he is quite a cumbersome fellow, but he has no trouble after the 2 minute mark in connecting his jab. Walking Mann down until Mann attempts an attack, at which point Louis parries and simultaneously delivers his own jab. This is the bread and butter of Louis' style and the primary counter afforded by his stance.

Here is a nice example of Louis on offense as he walks down Max Schmeling in their rematch. Louis plods towards the German who is stepping off to re-establish position elsewhere in the ring, then pounces on him with a hard jab that comes unexpectedly soon. While it is a fairly fast jab, it is important to the remember that jabs with the bodyweight behind them, as with Louis', are often slower than "snap jabs" performed with the arm alone, and yet Louis connects this weighted jab completely by surprise. This is largely due to timing and the fact that Louis almost never left his stance - he was always in position to push off of his back leg and drive in with a lead.

Here, again in the second meeting with Schmeling, Louis uses his jab to enter the pocket. Notice that the Blackburn style, and Louis' style, is all about controlling with the right hand - rather than blindly firing the left with the right up by the chin as a guard. Louis covers Schmeling's lead and steps in with his own jab. His head is not as far offline as against Mann in this match, and that is largely to do with his following both jabs on Schmeling with a left hook, for which is it necessary to have the shoulders over the hips, rather than dipping as in Louis' usual jab.


The most important point of note in the Blackburn crouch is that the head may be taken out of the line of fire with a dip at the waist, and not with side to side head movement. In almost all of Louis' fights, he does not slip to his lead side - only to his rear side, in varying degrees of a duck. This movement comes from both the waist bending and the legs crouching. When a jab or lead hook is ducked, a counter may be fired with the right or left hand, and when a right hand is ducked, it is simply underhooked and a clinch is established.

Louis' style is often attributed to natural skill, but in fact he was a clumsy gentleman with a big punch who was turned into one of the finest boxers in history. The Blackburn crouch, whose defense requires none of the split second timing necessary to identify a punch and slip to the appropriate side, is absolutely a viable option for almost anyone. Side on stances are not the fashion at the moment in boxing, which very much moves in trends, but it is very interesting that men such as Floyd Mayweather and Bernard Hopkins can have such great affect by using so called "old timer" techniques in a sport which pretends it has evolved past greats like Joe Louis and Ray Robinson.

To witness some of Louis' excellent ducks and counters, and for a taste of some of the beautiful technique to come in this series, take a look at this excellent highlight by Reznick. Notice that when finishing, Louis can get a little wild - he is certainly not perfect, but his defense and counters are top notch and all depend on varying degrees of a duck to his right. Louis almost never slips to his left because it is simply not the nature of his stance. My personal favorite and a lead to counter that I enjoy utilizing a lot comes at around 2:30.



To learn more about Joe Louis, stay tuned on Fights Gone By, also pick up my Advanced Striking ebook if you haven't already - which contains 70 techniques from 20 great strikers, around 15 of which came from Louis, Walcott and Robinson alone. The Blackburn crouch is extremely important to my personal striking philosophy and so will be covered in great detail in my upcoming Kindle book, Elementary Striking.

Originally from: Examining Joe Louis: The Blackburn Crouch and Rear Hand Parries ~ Fights Gone By: Classic Fights and Finishes

 

[Thatactionbrah]

I've read through this entire thread and I am trying to use the blackburn crouch.

The first time I learned about it was from jack slack's book and it made me interested in learning this.

Without a coach, how can a guy learn this correctly on his own?

 

[td82394]

YES! Joe Louis! My favorite boxer!

 

[clashnat]

Without a coach, how can a guy learn this correctly on his own?

Nearly impossible. Also you would need a coach who knows how to teach it, not just a random coach near your house.

You could try to apply certain aspects in sparring and see what works, but you'll never go beyond an application of fragments.

 

[Tysonalifrazier]

Great article.

Also,Louis jabs twice in the second gif.He really blinds Max with that and
lands the right hand flush.

 

[Sinister]

I was just remarking today about how fighters get a lot of questions about what other fighters they like to watch, because people want to watch who they watch. I think part of the reason people ask stuff like that is because they honestly think they can learn styles of boxing purely through observation, when this is a craft. Broner's shitty application of the Crab position should alert people to how intricate the learning process is. He spent significant amounts of time IN Mayweather Boxing Club watching this system be taught, and still doesn't look like it was fully learned. You don't just watch some videos of Joe Louis and expect to know the mind of Jack Blackburn.

 

[Discipulus]

It seems like you can even see the difference in Louis' jab between the first gif and the second. In the first one he lets it hang out there, which if I'm not mistaken was what gave Schmeling the opportunity to put him down. It's much more piston-like in the second gif. Both of the final two jabs are fully extended and retracted, and he doesn't drop his hand as much.

Excellent article, Jack. Love Jou Louis. A technical genius, without a doubt.

 

[thugpoet]

I was just remarking today about how fighters get a lot of questions about what other fighters they like to watch, because people want to watch who they watch. I think part of the reason people ask stuff like that is because they honestly think they can learn styles of boxing purely through observation, when this is a craft. Broner's shitty application of the Crab position should alert people to how intricate the learning process is. He spent significant amounts of time IN Mayweather Boxing Club watching this system be taught, and still doesn't look like it was fully learned. You don't just watch some videos of Joe Louis and expect to know the mind of Jack Blackburn.

Disagree, so many things can be reversed engineered. Ask yourself what is the answer for a cross, a jab, etc. Boxing is just a series of motor mechanics that most have been learned through observation.

If you cant learn through observation then film study is mute. Same thing with bjj if you cant learn through looking and watching why bother with training videos, training websites? You can learn with or with out a coach. The real problem is trying to blend a style from your coach and a style you see on YouTube. That's why broner is such a problem... You cant change your reactions after you have spent 15 years doing one thing, to another and have high success. Trying to fight like pbf isn't the problem trying to change how he fights is what's giving him trouble.

 

[TheStrikingGuy]

It seems like you can even see the difference in Louis' jab between the first gif and the second. In the first one he lets it hang out there, which if I'm not mistaken was what gave Schmeling the opportunity to put him down. It's much more piston-like in the second gif. Both of the final two jabs are fully extended and retracted, and he doesn't drop his hand as much.

Excellent article, Jack. Love Jou Louis. A technical genius, without a doubt.

Can't agree more. You watch it once and it's just a jab, then you watch it again and you realise that it's more than a punch, he uses it differently every time.

 

[Thatactionbrah]

I was just remarking today about how fighters get a lot of questions about what other fighters they like to watch, because people want to watch who they watch. I think part of the reason people ask stuff like that is because they honestly think they can learn styles of boxing purely through observation, when this is a craft. Broner's shitty application of the Crab position should alert people to how intricate the learning process is. He spent significant amounts of time IN Mayweather Boxing Club watching this system be taught, and still doesn't look like it was fully learned. You don't just watch some videos of Joe Louis and expect to know the mind of Jack Blackburn.

:icon_sad:

I guess there's no other way to learn Joe Louis' style of boxing then.

Sinister, is the boxing stance you teach similar to the blackburn crouch?

Nearly impossible. Also you would need a coach who knows how to teach it, not just a random coach near your house.

You could try to apply certain aspects in sparring and see what works, but you'll never go beyond an application of fragments.

Unfortunately that last sentence is too true. My boxing coach teaches a very tight guard with second knuckles on the temples/brows. it's horrible for my ability to see when sparring.

when I try to apply a more relaxed guard say knuckles on the cheek or a blackburn type crouch I get berated even though I do better this way.

Disagree, so many things can be reversed engineered. Ask yourself what is the answer for a cross, a jab, etc. Boxing is just a series of motor mechanics that most have been learned through observation.

If you cant learn through observation then film study is mute. Same thing with bjj if you cant learn through looking and watching why bother with training videos, training websites? You can learn with or with out a coach. The real problem is trying to blend a style from your coach and a style you see on YouTube. That's why broner is such a problem... You cant change your reactions after you have spent 15 years doing one thing, to another and have high success. Trying to fight like pbf isn't the problem trying to change how he fights is what's giving him trouble.

I'm going to start watching Joe Louis' videos and try studying them. I've always been interested in his boxing style. I've been looking for places around the country that can trace back to Blackburn and Louis, but haven't found much

 

[Sinister]

Just a few notes:

- I wouldn't really call what Blackburn taught a "crouch." For the main reason that that basic posture was pretty much normal in his days even though by comparison to modern times, would be considered low. Fighters who actually did fight out of a crouch had much much more exaggeration of the hip fold. Even guys like Dempsey and Jeffries who pre-dated Louis.

- Balance. Blackburn often said that what he taught Joe was balance more than anything else. Prior to meeting with Blackburn, Joe was a fleet-footed Amateur, and a damn good one. What Blackburn saw when he first saw Louis was that the kid could hit. But he noted that Louis was never set enough to really maximize the efficiency of his punch. But Blackburn was aware of the consequences of getting Joe to take more risks, hence the focus on balance. Balance when throwing a punch, balance when landing a punch, balance when taking a punch, and above all balance when missing a punch.

- Hips. It would be a great tragedy for anyone to read this article and begin to dip their bodies side to side incorrectly and end up with very very poor versions of what Joe did. Hip separation, hip rotation, and being in the correct position(s). Joe didn't simply curl his spine to get his body in the right position. If you look at his entire stance:

Note the fold of the rear hip, and that his shoulders do not hunch forward. They're big, but they're not curled forward. The bend is at the rear hip. What this translates to is good posture while in hitting position:

Chest up, chin down, back straight, weight in the hips and transitions between feet. Beautiful stuff.

 

[Steve08]

when I try to apply a more relaxed guard say knuckles on the cheek or a blackburn type crouch I get berated even though I do better this way.

Sounds like your "coach" wants to turn you into him, not the best version of YOURSELF.

I truly believe that the "hands glued" guard will fade into obscurity with time. It has no utility outside of sports which make use of oversized gloves, frankly. It also reduces your vision, exposes you to body shots, makes it harder to return with counters. Perhaps I'm just inexperienced, but I honestly can't think of any GOOD reason to glue your wrists to your temples beyond laziness. Sinister would probably have greater insight on it though.

 

[TheStrikingGuy]

Just a few notes:

- I wouldn't really call what Blackburn taught a "crouch." For the main reason that that basic posture was pretty much normal in his days even though by comparison to modern times, would be considered low. Fighters who actually did fight out of a crouch had much much more exaggeration of the hip fold. Even guys like Dempsey and Jeffries who pre-dated Louis.

- Balance. Blackburn often said that what he taught Joe was balance more than anything else. Prior to meeting with Blackburn, Joe was a fleet-footed Amateur, and a damn good one. What Blackburn saw when he first saw Louis was that the kid could hit. But he noted that Louis was never set enough to really maximize the efficiency of his punch. But Blackburn was aware of the consequences of getting Joe to take more risks, hence the focus on balance. Balance when throwing a punch, balance when landing a punch, balance when taking a punch, and above all balance when missing a punch.

- Hips. It would be a great tragedy for anyone to read this article and begin to dip their bodies side to side incorrectly and end up with very very poor versions of what Joe did. Hip separation, hip rotation, and being in the correct position(s). Joe didn't simply curl his spine to get his body in the right position. If you look at his entire stance:

Note the fold of the rear hip, and that his shoulders do not hunch forward. They're big, but they're not curled forward. The bend is at the rear hip. What this translates to is good posture while in hitting position:

Chest up, chin down, back straight, weight in the hips and transitions between feet. Beautiful stuff.

Man sinister, I always love your posts.

I had noticed that most fighters of Louis' day tended to fight more offline - in fact I noticed it mainly in the way that Louis and Robinson rarely threw their right hands truly straight as advocated today because they were often having to throw it across their body to land on their opponent's heads.

Why do you think the exagerated head off centre style has become so much less popular in boxing today? Do you feel that it's today's focus on combination punching? Louis was a great combo puncher but he had to square up first a lot of the time. Or even desire to slip right hands over the right shoulder which seems difficult from the head off centre stance?

 

[DoctorTaco]

Sounds like your "coach" wants to turn you into him, not the best version of YOURSELF.

I truly believe that the "hands glued" guard will fade into obscurity with time. It has no utility outside of sports which make use of oversized gloves, frankly. It also reduces your vision, exposes you to body shots, makes it harder to return with counters. Perhaps I'm just inexperienced, but I honestly can't think of any GOOD reason to glue your wrists to your temples beyond laziness. Sinister would probably have greater insight on it though.

He would. Sinister is a STRICT "hands up" coach

 

[Sinister]

I dont have time to reply right now, but when I get back to the Gym office on Monday I promise I will in-full.

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

Disagree, so many things can be reversed engineered. Ask yourself what is the answer for a cross, a jab, etc. Boxing is just a series of motor mechanics that most have been learned through observation.

If you cant learn through observation then film study is mute. Same thing with bjj if you cant learn through looking and watching why bother with training videos, training websites? You can learn with or with out a coach. The real problem is trying to blend a style from your coach and a style you see on YouTube. That's why broner is such a problem... You cant change your reactions after you have spent 15 years doing one thing, to another and have high success. Trying to fight like pbf isn't the problem trying to change how he fights is what's giving him trouble.

I agree with your disagree. Of course you can reverse engineer anything engineered by a human. The problem is that it might take you 20 years. But that's why the best trainers are always old as dirt.

 

[thugpoet]

Just a few notes:

- I wouldn't really call what Blackburn taught a "crouch." For the main reason that that basic posture was pretty much normal in his days even though by comparison to modern times, would be considered low. Fighters who actually did fight out of a crouch had much much more exaggeration of the hip fold. Even guys like Dempsey and Jeffries who pre-dated Louis.

- Balance. Blackburn often said that what he taught Joe was balance more than anything else. Prior to meeting with Blackburn, Joe was a fleet-footed Amateur, and a damn good one. What Blackburn saw when he first saw Louis was that the kid could hit. But he noted that Louis was never set enough to really maximize the efficiency of his punch. But Blackburn was aware of the consequences of getting Joe to take more risks, hence the focus on balance. Balance when throwing a punch, balance when landing a punch, balance when taking a punch, and above all balance when missing a punch.

- Hips. It would be a great tragedy for anyone to read this article and begin to dip their bodies side to side incorrectly and end up with very very poor versions of what Joe did. Hip separation, hip rotation, and being in the correct position(s). Joe didn't simply curl his spine to get his body in the right position. If you look at his entire stance:

Note the fold of the rear hip, and that his shoulders do not hunch forward. They're big, but they're not curled forward. The bend is at the rear hip. What this translates to is good posture while in hitting position:

Chest up, chin down, back straight, weight in the hips and transitions between feet. Beautiful stuff.

i like to add,, if i may be so bold. To feel what it feels like to be in proper position, pull your hips back as if you are going to do a stiff legged deadlift. Your weight will be over your back leg, but the bend won't be at the waist it Will be at your hips.

 

[Sinister]

Disagree, so many things can be reversed engineered. Ask yourself what is the answer for a cross, a jab, etc. Boxing is just a series of motor mechanics that most have been learned through observation.

If you cant learn through observation then film study is mute. Same thing with bjj if you cant learn through looking and watching why bother with training videos, training websites? You can learn with or with out a coach. The real problem is trying to blend a style from your coach and a style you see on YouTube. That's why broner is such a problem... You cant change your reactions after you have spent 15 years doing one thing, to another and have high success. Trying to fight like pbf isn't the problem trying to change how he fights is what's giving him trouble.

Disagree. You'd have a Hell of a time trying to give me any examples of any noteworthy competitors who BUILT themselves from the ground up, learning purely through observation. The kind of learning through observation you seem to be insinuating in your disagreement reaches a level of absurdity. Eddie Futch could teach someone a lot about how Joe Louis and Jack Blackburn thought, without being trained by Blackburn, wanna know why? Because he SPARRED Joe Louis often and saw what he did in-person, heard what he was told in-person. His level of observation wasn't relegated to seeing a few things and then filling in the rest of the gaps with supposing. And no, most trainers who are worth a shit don't merely look at stuff and figure it out alone. They spend time around other trainers, picking up anything they can to better convey HOW to explain such a simple thing as boxing to someone.

To suggest people can get into a life-threatening Sport such as fighting competitively with mere observation as a learning tool is also fairly irresponsible. I'm sure you take yourself seriously, but I'd suggest taking the health of a kid who watches some youtube videos of Joe Louis for a few months, then decides to step into a Gym and get in the ring with someone with an actual education seriously as well. I've seen that go very very bad. Now, all that said, is what you're suggesting IMPOSSIBLE? No, of course not. Things can be reverse-engineered, typically BY someone with either an engineering mind, or an education on the subject. People like to point at Einstein as an example of an ordinary man who could change everything via just being that smart, but the truth is he had a very fine education which gave him a basic understanding of what he was pondering.

Now, about Broner. I'm not sure how you could say that trying to fight like Floyd wasn't the problem, that it was trying to change his style that was. First of all, being educated IN Boxing gives him a much better base understanding of the mechanics. I've seen people with no understanding try to do that, it ends much quicker for them. But then there's the fact that trying to fight like Floyd IS how he was trying to change his style. So yes, trying to fight like Floyd was the problem. And if you're suggesting that changing a person's style is generally bad, I'd refer you to guys like Marco Antonio Barrera, Manny Pacquiao, Marlon Starling, Mike McCallum, Arturo Gatti, all men who fought very specific ways to get to the World Level (primarily raw aggression), then turned into very skilled boxer/punchers to adapt, survive, and move beyond losses or extend their careers. Know how? By having well-educated and credible trainers teach them some shit they never figured out on their own.

 

[Dismas]

Brilliant this forum is sensational at times

 

[a guy]

I agree with your disagree. Of course you can reverse engineer anything engineered by a human. The problem is that it might take you 20 years. But that's why the best trainers are always old as dirt.

I disagree with your agree with his disagree. The thing that separates boxing is that you have to figure out how to do it, and THEN go actually do it. Understanding and application are completely different. If you're reverse engineering something like a math problem, then once you know how to do it you can do it. I can watch Joe Louis and say "oh he keeps his weight back and lead shoulder out in front, I'll try that", but I might not even be physically capable of holding the correct starting position. I might need to do exercises to develop the hip mobility to get into the stance. Or maybe it's actually my ankle that's the problem. Then you need to teach your body how to perform every movement, and how to perform them at the right time. You need to figure out how to answer problems that you won't even consider until they literally hit you in the face.

So not only do you need to have the type of mind that can figure things out based on observation, you need to have the physical skills to go out and do it. You need an understanding of kinesiology, strategy, programming, psychology, etc., and you need to be able to apply all of that to yourself objectively. If you were taught by someone who had been doing it for 20 years, then spent 20 years on your own adding to that education and learning from other guys who have been doing it for 20 years, then you take all that and turn it into something special, sure. That's the value of lineage right there. These are the kinds of things that get developed over generations.

 

[Dismas]

Can someone link me to the George Benton thread

 

[Sinister]

^Not to mention doing it under pressure. You can reverse-engineer a math problem, but no one is going to punch you in the face while you're explaining your method to people.

 

[thugpoet]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/masters-boxing-george-benton-2149287/

 

[a guy]

Eh that depends. We don't take kindly to those math nerds where I'm from.

 

[Dismas]

Thanks dude

 

[thugpoet]

Disagree. You'd have a Hell of a time trying to give me any examples of any noteworthy competitors who BUILT themselves from the ground up, learning purely through observation. The kind of learning through observation you seem to be insinuating in your disagreement reaches a level of absurdity. Eddie Futch could teach someone a lot about how Joe Louis and Jack Blackburn thought, without being trained by Blackburn, wanna know why? Because he SPARRED Joe Louis often and saw what he did in-person, heard what he was told in-person. His level of observation wasn't relegated to seeing a few things and then filling in the rest of the gaps with supposing. And no, most trainers who are worth a shit don't merely look at stuff and figure it out alone. They spend time around other trainers, picking up anything they can to better convey HOW to explain such a simple thing as boxing to someone.

To suggest people can get into a life-threatening Sport such as fighting competitively with mere observation as a learning tool is also fairly irresponsible. I'm sure you take yourself seriously, but I'd suggest taking the health of a kid who watches some youtube videos of Joe Louis for a few months, then decides to step into a Gym and get in the ring with someone with an actual education seriously as well. I've seen that go very very bad. Now, all that said, is what you're suggesting IMPOSSIBLE? No, of course not. Things can be reverse-engineered, typically BY someone with either an engineering mind, or an education on the subject. People like to point at Einstein as an example of an ordinary man who could change everything via just being that smart, but the truth is he had a very fine education which gave him a basic understanding of what he was pondering.

Now, about Broner. I'm not sure how you could say that trying to fight like Floyd wasn't the problem, that it was trying to change his style that was. First of all, being educated IN Boxing gives him a much better base understanding of the mechanics. I've seen people with no understanding try to do that, it ends much quicker for them. But then there's the fact that trying to fight like Floyd IS how he was trying to change his style. So yes, trying to fight like Floyd was the problem. And if you're suggesting that changing a person's style is generally bad, I'd refer you to guys like Marco Antonio Barrera, Manny Pacquiao, Marlon Starling, Mike McCallum, Arturo Gatti, all men who fought very specific ways to get to the World Level (primarily raw aggression), then turned into very skilled boxer/punchers to adapt, survive, and move beyond losses or extend their careers. Know how? By having well-educated and credible trainers teach them some shit they never figured out on their own.

Kobe Bryant is a carbin copy of micheal jordan.

Trainers help of course i am not trying to say otherwise, what I am saying is that one doesn't need a trainer to learn to shoulder roll. ( I am not downgrading the Mayweather system to the shoulder roll)

Styles are invited all the time, the Mayweather system is a blend of Michigan style.

For the fights you named they didn't change their style they added to theie own personal system.

 

[thugpoet]

Thanks dude

anytime

 

[LJD]

Kobe Bryant is a carbin copy of micheal jordan.

Trainers help of course i am not trying to say otherwise, what I am saying is that one doesn't need a trainer to learn to shoulder roll. ( I am not downgrading the Mayweather system to the shoulder roll)

Styles are invited all the time, the Mayweather system is a blend of Michigan style.

For the fights you named they didn't change their style they added to theie own personal system.

Kobe Bryant isn't a carbon copy of Jordan, they have their similarities but Kobe has his own (less effective) style. And I don't really see what Kobe serves as an example of here? His dad was an NBA player, Kobe played with current NBA players while he was in high school, and his whole life he has been around high level basketball players or coaches. He didn't create his style just by watching videos, he received a lot of training.

 

[Sinister]

Man sinister, I always love your posts.

I had noticed that most fighters of Louis' day tended to fight more offline - in fact I noticed it mainly in the way that Louis and Robinson rarely threw their right hands truly straight as advocated today because they were often having to throw it across their body to land on their opponent's heads.

Why do you think the exagerated head off centre style has become so much less popular in boxing today? Do you feel that it's today's focus on combination punching? Louis was a great combo puncher but he had to square up first a lot of the time. Or even desire to slip right hands over the right shoulder which seems difficult from the head off centre stance?

Okay, now I have leave to answer. First things first, they didn't so much throw their rights across their bodies. They enabled the right hand by using their hips and not their upper-bodies. It's just difficult to see in old footage or detect how it was done in photos.

The classic principals became less popular largely due to the use of bigger gloves. This allowed for the "hand up" principal of defense (which is as easy as using your eyes to explain as a theory) to facilitate people who didn't know a whole lot about boxing to attempt to make money as trainers. Today's focus has to be primarily on offense by default, because very few trainers are left who can properly instruct their students on correct positioning to either cause a blow to miss, or take the sting off of it.

Louis's style wasn't built around being slick. Blackburn made this a decision because of how well Joe could hit. He knew taking away Joe's happy feet would lead to him getting hit more, or at least, being vulnerable. Now Joe wasn't easy to hit cleanly by any means. But part of the adjustment was dropping his weight onto his feet to maximize the force of a blow. At times when Joe would lapse in his concentration for whatever reason, or was up against opposition who was particularly skilled in a certain area, he'd get hit, even dropped. But his techniques were right, he just had a habit of holding a position a little too long waiting for HIS opening.

 

[thugpoet]

Kobe Bryant isn't a carbon copy of Jordan, they have their similarities but Kobe has his own (less effective) style. And I don't really see what Kobe serves as an example of here? His dad was an NBA player, Kobe played with current NBA players while he was in high school, and his whole life he has been around high level basketball players or coaches. He didn't create his style just by watching videos, he received a lot of training.

agree to disagree then. kobe spent his whole career trying to be Jordan... if you cant see that then I question your basketball knowledge.

Kobe didnt have the athletic ability that Jordan had nor the ability to move without the basketball.

how do styles get created originally? who created the crab? who created kung fu? it all has to come from somewhere and if it does come from someone, then how did they come come up with it? through studying others, fighting, trail and error. its really common sense...

If there are no masters how do you become a master?

 

[Sinister]

Why is this thread dying?

 

[Sinister]

Typically styles being created are an idea, nothing more. Like you said, who invented the Crab style? That question has an answer, and it's Tommy Ryan. Ryan himself was a World Class fighter AND a World Class instructor who had ideas. And he honed those ideas through a fairly lengthy trial and error process until he created Jim Jeffries. Brendan Ingle also had a notable History in the Sport, then crafted the style his entire Gym would be known for, and had many good contenders before Herol Graham emerged, then later Naseem Hamed. None of these guys fashioned a career off mere study. Even guys who proclaim to be self-taught learned a basic set of principals somewhere. Kobe became who he is based off watching Jordan? Even if that's completely true, he didn't learn HOW TO PLAY basketball from the ground up by watching Jordan.

BTW, a guy I went to school with would have been a much better example of your point. A guy who crossed Jordan up, Iverson. No coach really fashioned him into the player he was, but he was that rare gem of a dual-sport athlete that no trainer could sensibly wait an entire career on.

P.S. - Those men changed their styles, even they admit it. I don't see why you won't. Especially considering that when Pacquiao tried to go back to the style that he mauled Barrera with in their first meeting, he suffered THE harshest loss of his career.

 

[Discipulus]

I have a question about Joe and many other old school boxers. I watched a handful of Joe's fights today (fights with Schmeling, Godoy, Jersey Joe) and noticed the peculiar way that he throws his hooks. Namely, he keeps his elbows low, which is always pointed out as a no-no these days. Was this some difference brought on my his stance? He seems to get very little arm movement on the hooks but puts a ton of hip and torso twist into them. Or was Joe just a thrower of weird punches?

His uppercuts were terrific, by the way. Sinister, I saw the concepts you showed in that video of yours on the lead uppercut in action. He didn't pop his hip way out or lean back at all. Just a little push from front foot to back, and that punch packed a whallop.

 

[thugpoet]

Typically styles being created are an idea, nothing more. Like you said, who invented the Crab style? That question has an answer, and it's Tommy Ryan. Ryan himself was a World Class fighter AND a World Class instructor who had ideas. And he honed those ideas through a fairly lengthy trial and error process until he created Jim Jeffries. Brendan Ingle also had a notable History in the Sport, then crafted the style his entire Gym would be known for, and had many good contenders before Herol Graham emerged, then later Naseem Hamed. None of these guys fashioned a career off mere study. Even guys who proclaim to be self-taught learned a basic set of principals somewhere. Kobe became who he is based off watching Jordan? Even if that's completely true, he didn't learn HOW TO PLAY basketball from the ground up by watching Jordan.

BTW, a guy I went to school with would have been a much better example of your point. A guy who crossed Jordan up, Iverson. No coach really fashioned him into the player he was, but he was that rare gem of a dual-sport athlete that no trainer could sensibly wait an entire career on.

P.S. - Those men changed their styles, even they admit it. I don't see why you won't. Especially considering that when Pacquiao tried to go back to the style that he mauled Barrera with in their first meeting, he suffered THE harshest loss of his career.

So if one person can create a style then isn't it possible for another person to replicate a style?

 

[Sinister]

Very good question. Nowadays some people refer to Joe's hooks as "rising"...because of the trajectory, the elbow doesn't turn over until the last second. A lot of old school trainers taught the hook by first teaching the uppercut, in fact Ray Robinson used to refer to the hook as "an upside down uppercut."

Joe's elbows were low by principal of his stance. The focus those days was on keeping the elbows down to guard the body, if the head is in proper position it doesn't need MUCH guarding, as it's always moving away from the opponent's punches if you move correctly from the onset. Thumbs would be toward the center line, making it easier to keep the elbows down in the first place (for all you guys who have trouble keeping your elbows from flaring outward, try that). Now, if you throw a hook by lifting your elbow and making it all shoulder dependent, two things will happen. One is it'll be easy to block or duck, because your whole arm is across the eye line, second is if you miss, you risk throwing your shoulder out because it's a weak joint and you're relying on its integrity to contain all that force. The proper way to do it would be a slight shift of weight to the front hip, then the trunk rotates. The shoulder stays down (but it'll tilt naturally when you shift weight back to the back foot again) and the shot is fired without moving the shoulder, so the trunk supports the weight of the punch. There's not very many good photos of Ray throwing his hook at the early stages, but it looks something like this:

Note how straight his back is, and how his shoulders are in a good position. Here's another:

Now, imagine the opponent wasn't low. All he'd have to do is slightly lift the elbow and turn his fist over, like so:



It doesn't matter what Gene would have done, there was simply no getting away from that particular left hook unless you fled the scene.

 

[Negative Zero]

So if one person can create a style then isn't it possible for another person to replicate a style?

If someone can learn how to paint well, and then paint The Mona Lisa, could someone else then stare at The Mona Lisa long enough to paint a replica anywhere near as good as the first?

 

[Discipulus]

Thanks a lot for the answer. I've heard before about just bringing the elbow through at the last second. Makes sense as far as linking the whole body at once and keeping the punch out of the line of sight. It's interesting to see the way Joe used his whole body to just throw those short compact hooks one after the other. His knockout of Jersey Joe Walcott was one smashing hook after another.

I liked in the post fight interview, the interviewer, an ex-boxer whose name I unfortunately can't recall, said: "It looked like you hit him with my left hook, Joe." And Joe replied, "Yeah, but I hit him with my right, too." He wasn't as simple as people made him out to be, clearly.

Damn, that last hook of Sugar Ray's was terrific. I actually just watched his first fight with Fullmer the other day when ESPN was showing a Sugar Ray marathon, so it's good to see him win the rematch. What a devastating punch.

 

[thugpoet]

If someone can learn how to paint well, and then paint The Mona Lisa, could someone else then stare at The Mona Lisa long enough to paint a replica anywhere near as good as the first?

Yeah because learning = zero practice #rollseyes

 

[Strykerx]

Sinister can you break down Jose Napoles stance it seems very similar to Joe Louis stance in the photo? I recall you mentioning that's how one should fight off the front foot. His stance seems like his weight is either more on the back foot or evenly distributed. Plus Napoles guard throws me off at times.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I don't see a lot of disagreement here. Disagreement on phrasing or emphasis, but really everyone seems to acknowledge that you can't learn a style unless you have coaching and practice from someone familiar and knowledgeable of that style.

Otherwise the best you can do is be lucky to pick up bits and pieces of what they are doing by watching them (still worth something, imo), but not fit them together efficiently enough to be able to personally recognize, let alone execute the components together within the strategy, movement, timing, etc. which = their style.