Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

[shpboris]

They don't have their hands up! And they don't have "good footwork" I.e. bouncing around on their toes.

Actually what i usually hear is this - "And they don't have good footwork I.e. bouncing around on their toes".

But no matter how you look at it - even if you are a fan of very active footwork with covering a lot of distance - this statement is still incorrect. As you clearly have fighters like Pepp and this fighter from lower weight(?) that gave a lot of trouble to Luis. Both of them had VERY active foootwork.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, then he got knocked out by him. That was Conn. And Pep had a ton of trouble with the much slower-footed and plodding Saddler.

 

[MMA-JORGE]

In regards to parrying the jab with the lead hand (matched pair) I always teach, and was taught, that you want to avoid that. As was mentioned earlier, you want to make sure to have your counter ready to fire off in response, in this case, a jab, and more importantly, you want to avoid opening up the path for the right hand. Parrying/blocking the jab with the lead hand places you in line for the right hand. It falls under fundamental miscalculation of attack values/exchanges. Parrying the jab with the lead hand shows too much respect to the jab, and its low risk/low reward nature. It skews the reward wildly in its favor by opening up the line for the right hand.

That's not to say this cannot be used to draw that right hand out, you can circle right and parry the jab with lead hand OUTSIDE the jab and open the path for your own right hand minor counter, but that requires really fast reflexes/feet.

catch or parry the orthodox jab with the trailing (right) hand. But again, that's just the science, as always, there is no must in art...

 

[shpboris]

Yeah, then he got knocked out by him. That was Conn. And Pep had a ton of trouble with the much slower-footed and plodding Saddler.

Regardless of the results achieved by Conn and Pep (in Luis\Saddler fights), they still existed and boxed long time ago )) I.e it is not like until Ali or Leonard nobody moved a lot in the ring - contrary to what a lot of people think.

Btw, on the topic of "active" footwork - I think that what Conn did in Luis fight was amazing. Was he even a heavyweight originally ?

 

[Sinister]

Oh I get you, I initially read you wrong.

But yes, movers have been around forever. Jim Jeffries was a mover when he fought on the outside. And I think Conn began as a light heavyweight.

On that fight, I remember a quote of Louis' after the bout. I'm pretty sure it was that fight. A reporter asked him why he didn't just throw his famous right hand and Louis said:

"He was really difficult to put in position to be hit by the right hand."

Who the Hell talks like that nowadays?

 

[tehmvp]

Oh I get you, I initially read you wrong.

But yes, movers have been around forever. Jim Jeffries was a mover when he fought on the outside. And I think Conn began as a light heavyweight.

On that fight, I remember a quote of Louis' after the bout. I'm pretty sure it was that fight. A reporter asked him why he didn't just throw his famous right hand and Louis said:

"He was really difficult to put in position to be hit by the right hand."

Who the Hell talks like that nowadays?

Now they say "he ran all night" even when the opponent is in front of them most of the fight.

 

[Sinister]

^True indeed.

 

[Steve08]

Anyone who thinks fighters now are MORE technical is merely misguided, or ignorant.

You mean to tell me Travis Browne isn't a better striker than Fedor?!?!?!

Steve08's head spins around a dozen times

 

[clashnat]

Who the Hell talks like that nowadays?

I don't know if he ever said the exact same sentence, but Keith Thurman is very analytical post-fight. He knows boxing and doesn't rely on instincts only during his fights.

 

[Higus]

In regards to parrying the jab with the lead hand (matched pair) I always teach, and was taught, that you want to avoid that. As was mentioned earlier, you want to make sure to have your counter ready to fire off in response, in this case, a jab, and more importantly, you want to avoid opening up the path for the right hand. Parrying/blocking the jab with the lead hand places you in line for the right hand. It falls under fundamental miscalculation of attack values/exchanges. Parrying the jab with the lead hand shows too much respect to the jab, and its low risk/low reward nature. It skews the reward wildly in its favor by opening up the line for the right hand.

That's not to say this cannot be used to draw that right hand out, you can circle right and parry the jab with lead hand OUTSIDE the jab and open the path for your own right hand minor counter, but that requires really fast reflexes/feet.

catch or parry the orthodox jab with the trailing (right) hand. But again, that's just the science, as always, there is no must in art...

You could just return a parried jab with your own jab immediately after. Works great on at the beginning of a round where your opponent is only throwing feeler jabs to find distance. As soon as you parry, he's already figured out the distance for you.

 

[herdofcaribou]

Hey Sinister

Thanks for the great thread and all the advice. I had a quick question about something you were talking about. The idea of keeping a dagger pointed at your opponent and keeping your lead toe pointed at there center line.

If you are trying to take an outside angle which foot do you move first?

I've been trying both ways and both seem like they have their issues.

My initial instinct is to move the rear foot first and then follow up with the lead foot while keeping my toe and guard pointed at the opponent's centerline. The thing with this is while its stable I feel like since I'm so loaded on my rear hip I have to shift weight to my front hip which leads to a little wasted motion.

Moving the other way, front leg first rear leg second, has the problem of crossing your feet a little. Though if you do this while pointing your lead toe at your opponent it doesn't feel like you are getting that unstable, just momentarily taking an extreme side on stance. I have found this method to be a quicker movement and less unstable then I thought it would be. Also it feels like this is more constantly threatening to my opponent. Though this is just a feeling since I haven't sparred with it yet,

So is there a right way to do it in this stance? Or do you use either one depending on the situation?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Sinister]

First things first, don't thank me for the thread. It ain't my thread.

Taking an angle is never not going to have a tentative issue. You can only be trained to address said issues, and assure you step the correct way. But without seeing you step, I can't really say what might be going wrong. Then you get into the different schools of thought on what IS the correct way to step.

But from what you describe, well, any time you move one foot, the weight has to be born by the other. There's no way of getting around that. But the biggest threat is where your head is. I teach my students to step without their heads going forward, even if their weight must shift. Unless they INTEND to head to go forward because they're setting a trap, at which point it's for a purpose. If your head doesn't go forward and you're still balanced, that's as correct as it's going to get. Crossing the feet is never an option because it's by default, imbalanced.

 

[herdofcaribou]

First things first, don't thank me for the thread. It ain't my thread.

Good point, thanks for the input then.

As for the stepping. I'll see if I can get some video of it to post. Thanks for the additional input about head placement, that helps a lot.

 

[herdofcaribou]

Hey Sinister

So I was checking out your "Viking" thread and was interested in the "Praetorian". I have a similar build short with short arms so I thought it would be helpful. Watching some of his heavy bag exercises I think I can see the 2 kinds of stepping I am talking about.

In this video around at around 0:52 you him throw a right and then quickly move to the outside by moving his rear foot to the right first then bringing his left foot to the right after.



(sorry can't seem to embed these)

In this 2nd video at around 2:14 shows the 2nd type of stepping I was talking about. You have him throw a jab while stepping with his lead foot forward and to the right. The rear foot follows to the outside after that creating an angle for his right uppercut.



It seems like the way he steps is determined by the punch he throws before hand. In the first example he throws a right so he ends up with his weight over his left hip so he moves first with the right foot. In the 2nd clip he leads with a jab so its his left hip that is unweighted so he moves with that one to the outside first.

So really either way is fine unless you get unbalanced. Am I understanding? This seems to be making more sense.

One last question for the 2nd example where he jabs and steps with his left foot forward and to the right. Is the jab supposed to have much power on it or it just to distract? I feel like when I try this type of stepping my jab is really weak like I'm throwing out to the side almost. Is there a way to counteract this or is just the nature of that kind of stepping while punching?

Thanks

 

[Sinister]

No, the way he steps at 2:14 is not correct. I didn't say anything about it in the video, though, for whatever reason. I don't recall. Sometimes I just let them step that way if I can tell they can barely comprehend going that direction, asking them to do so correctly when it's just a reflex action doesn't work out well. He WAS unbalanced because his feet were crossed. Had anyone thrown a punch right then, he wouldn't have defended it well.

If he'd have stepped correctly, you jab, then step with the right foot. The jab can be as hard as you want.

Later in that thread I pointed out that Kolli did the same thing habitually, then showed footage where he didn't do it because that was one of the last things we worked on together the last time he was here. On a sidenote, Kolli won his second Pro fight, so he's 2-0 now.

 

[herdofcaribou]

OK that makes sense. It looks like he corrects himself in the next attempt at 2:20.

Haven't finished reading the viking thread so I'll keep an eye out for the same move by Kolli. Good to hear he won his 2nd fight! Looks like the hard work is paying off.

Thanks for the help!

Oh also it really helped to watch Arni take on Kolli. Seeing someone try to work around that height difference was very useful.

 

[Sinister]

Arni is great at stepping to his right without crossing his feet.

 

[herdofcaribou]

I did notice that but think I got distracted watching Praetorian a lot. I'll go back and watch Arni's videos some more.

 

[a guy]

Is there a video of Kolli's second fight? I just recently finished going through that thread and would love to see an update.

This also reminded me that you posted a video or two of one of the vikings sparring in the "what's goin down at Tocco's thread" and I forgot to watch it.

 

[Sinister]

That was Bjorn vs. Daijon. There's probably a couple of vids in there you should catch up on. No videos of Kolli's fights, though.