Jiu Jitsu Scoring - Your Interpretation

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Killians, Mar 15, 2008.

  1. Killians

    Killians White Belt

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    i was at a tourney this weekend, rules followed were supposed to be IBJJF rules. my first tourney as a blue belt.... it was a somewhat eye opening experience.

    here are several position examples, tell me how YOU think they should have been called.

    1) Fighter A is mounted on Fighter B. Fighter B bucks and reverses the position, so now Fighter B is in Fighter A's guard. Should any points be awarded?

    2) Fighter A is in side control on Fighter B. Fighter B rolls Fighter A, switching the position, so that now Fighter B is in side control on Fighter A. What points should be awarded?

    3) Fighter A has Fighter B's back, both hooks in. While struggling, Fighter B gets one of the hooks out, but cannot completely escape. About 5 seconds later, Fighter A gets the lost hook back in. Should you award any points?

    4) Fighter A is in half guard, and while trying to switch from halfguard to sidecontrol or mount (during that scramble) Fighter B reverses the position and winds up on top, either in guard, halfguard or side control. Should any points be awarded?

    these are all the situations i could think of off the top of my head tonight. so confusing and frustrating, i just didnt know what to think. i have never seen the bias that is given to members of certain gyms or to brazillians, but wow, it was all there in flying colors. having all of the refs also be the coaches of half the guys competing.... it is just such a huge conflict of interest, it made me sick.

    and there is nothing you can do about it- if you complain, you just look like an asshole. you have to go in with the mindset of 'points dont even matter, if you dont convincingly finish this guy you are not going to win'.

    anyway, if i could get some feedback, that would be awesome. thanks.
     
  2. Asel1

    Asel1 BAd [email protected]

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    Welcome to "Brazilian" jiu-jitsu my friend, thats why u just have to tap them out
     
  3. Slithers

    Slithers Green Belt

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    1. 0
    2. 0
    3. i dunno
    4. depends on if fighter b used his legs to sweep. doesnt sound like it.
     
  4. bobbylight**

    bobbylight** Banned Banned

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    1) No points

    2) points for sweep

    3) only points for back once

    4) points for sweep

    This is just my opinion, I don't know though.
     
  5. Sean-Roberts

    Sean-Roberts Blue Belt

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    ive been a refferee for a tournament before
    1.no
    2.no
    3.no
    4.yes
     
  6. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Guest

    1. no
    2. no
    3. no
    4. yes
     
  7. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    1. Escapes = 0 points, a sweep is only a sweep if it's from your guard.
    2. Same as 1., escape = 0 points.
    3. This is a tough one, i would think 0 points, you only get points if you are advancing position, so if you go from side control to knee on belly, back to side control to knee on belly back to side control to knee on belly, you don't keep racking up the points.
    4. Because it started in fighter b's guard and he ends up on top, it's a sweep, doesn't matter if there is a scramble in between, it's the end result that counts.
     
  8. juiclaw

    juiclaw Yellow Belt

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    1 no
    2 no
    3 no
    4 Yes If his legs are involved in the change of position
    If you reverse a position eg escape side control you do not get sweep point you have to involve some sort of a guard even if its only a shit hook that really doing fuck all
     
  9. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    No points should be awarded imo. They are all just regular common sense moves you would do to assume top and hopefully top control.


    From the looks of it all, I am the minority opinion. Points are popular.

    Makes me wonder tho, are points necessary? I mean, we can't let every match go for an hour but Can't One Tell Who Wins a Grappling Match w/o them? Seems ok in mma.
     
  10. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Brown Belt

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    I agree with most posters.

    1. no points
    2. no points
    3. no additional points
    4. 2 points for sweep

    What do YOU think, TS?
     
  11. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    yes, unfortunately points are a necessity, especially at the higher level, it's a game of inches, and a lot of black belt matches go down to the wire and can be decided by just 1 advantage
     
  12. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    I hear you and I'm not sure really. Does take me back to the ole debates on whether 'attempted' techs are valuable or not. We can see the advantage all the way thru right. I hate judging rounds in mma as well tho.:D

    Politics? They blow either way. Leave it to a decision would seem to make it finer.
     
  13. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    most white belt matches end with submission, most black belt matches are a points decision, so it's always best to not leave it to the ref, but it gets harder and harder to finish at the higher level.
     
  14. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    Is there much controversy in bjj scoring in matches at the upper level?
     
  15. easy tiger

    easy tiger Blue Belt

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    1. no
    2. no
    3. no
    4. yes
     
  16. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    Q I have competed in a judo newaza comp, it didn't award points for sweeps or passes, it was kinda arbitary when it came down to the descision IMO, if no sub or pin had been scored
    the ref was to give the victory to the most active, well the awarding throut the comp was very iffy , sometimes guardpassing an reversals were the key to get the active nod, sometimes sub atempts gave the nod
     
  17. Killians

    Killians White Belt

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    all of the answers are pretty much what i expected, and was also the 'general' interpretation of the rules. the only part that can be frustrating to me is determining when you do a sweep during a scramble, the ref has all the judgement of whether or not you used your legs for the sweep. i had a case where i had half guard on his right leg, trapped his right arm, opened my legs up to and push the guy on top over and wound up in sidecontrol with no points awarded. since i pushed off the ground or whatever, i didnt push his body with my legs, so he didnt consider it a sweep? the ref didn't even speak much english, so i couldnt ask wtf was going on afterwards for any explanation to it, instead i just was pissed and that is no way to be when you are competing.

    however, i DID see example 3 happen in a purple belt match. Fighter A had Fighter B's back, both hooks in, 4 points. lost a hook, got it back, 4 points. Fighter B rolls over so now Fighter A is in mount, 4 points (that one makes sense). Fighter keeps rolling, trying to escape, Fighter A has his back again, 4 points. Fighter A loses a hook again, gets it back, 4 points. It was 20-0 in the span of like 45 seconds.

    to me, it was just the conflict of interest that made me upset. there were maybe 7 or 8 refs during the whole day, and 3 of them were from gyms other than the one putting on the tourney. those guys were all pretty good (ie they were not leaving the mat they were reffing to coach someone on another mat in the middle of the tourney) and it seems to me that if your gym is putting on a tournament, just to be respectable you would get some third party refs. but, this must not be the case.

    i mean hey, it is all for fun, and i love competing, but in something that really doesnt matter that much in the big picture (a blue belt match is so life and death, right) i just dont get why anyone would need to try and turn the tables in their favor.

    ALSO- wow, sandbaggers are so lame. this guy comes in, maybe 20 something with some of the worst cauliflower ear i had ever seen, and he does no-gi beginner. i dont care if you don't know jiu jitsu- if you have wrestled competitively for years and were good, you dont need to do beginner no-gi.

    and has anyone seen this:

    someone wins their division in white belt, and then while they are getting their medal from the guy running the tourney (who is also their coach) they get PROMOTED TO BLUE BELT. thats right; immediately after the tourney, the coach thought 'well, you were good enough to roll with white belts this tournament, and since you beat them all now you are a blue belt'. do some gyms really require winning your weight class or something to get promoted? i thought that was disrespectful to the other guys who are legit white belts in that class.
     
  18. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    1. No
    2. No
    3. No
    4. Yes

    At the vast majority of tournaments, these are the correct answers.

    I guess there is some debate about the use of the legs on number 4. From my experience, whether a sweep uses the legs primarily or not is irrelevant. The points are instead given based on whether the reversal occurred from a "guard" position or a "guard has been passed" position.

    A lot of times this distinction comes into play with arm drags. Let's say I have butterfly guard on my opponent. I attack him with an arm drag and start getting to his back. To avoid me getting his back, he rolls over to the bottom position voluntarily.

    In this situation, I did not use my legs to sweep at all. In fact, I took no proactive sweep action whatsoever. I only tried to take his back. But nonetheless, because of the fact that I started in a "guard" position and clearly ended up on top, I score 2 points for a sweep.

    So I think the sweep points are more accurately awarded based on whether the reversal came from a guard position or not. Guard positions would be any form of closed or open guard, half guard, turtle position, or any other position where guard pass points would not be awarded. A guard passed position is mount, back mount, any form of side control, or any other pin where guard pass points would be awarded.
     
  19. Cash Bill 52

    Cash Bill 52 Brown Belt

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    Mount to guard is a superior to neutral position...0 points

    Any time you go from an inferior position to a dominate position it's worth points.

    The tricky one for me is the takedown. If you are tied up and you grab a leg, then he jumps to guard, do I get the takedown??

    Or someone tries to take me down and I whizzer and wind up on top; do I get points?
     
  20. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    If you begin a takedown on your opponent and he jumps guard in the middle of it, you should still receive takedown points.

    You should also receive takedown points for countering his takedown and ending up on top.

    I think the points are only negated for guard pulling when one party clearly initiates a guard pull to the bottom position with no corresponding attack from the other party. If there is no clear independent guard pull action, then the points will be awarded based on who secures the top position when the scramble is finished.
     

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