Japanese Jujutsu vs. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

well i am doing JJJ at the moment, and do some lessons in BJJ when i can.

JJJ does not work at all on the ground other than some holding and restraining moves, yes we have armbars and the locks but we do not work in guard, or learn to sweep etc. It is really unfortunate.
I am lucky at my school, the shidoshi's son is a shoot wrestler, and done MMA as well, and has been teaching us alot of shoots, takedowns, triangle chokes, kneebars, heel hooks more practical MMA techniques. As well as gettin out Thai pads and doing striking drills.

But to get back to your original post, I am probably 3 month of BJJ experience, probably a dozen lessons, and i got one of our black belts in a RNC, i thought he was just lettin me go cause i am only a yellow belt in JJJ but they did not really grapple very well, cause to be honest they dont train for it, if we had started on our feet instead of the nuetral position they would have owned me for sure though, i just pulled guard and went from there.

JJJ has more in common with JUDO to be honest than BJJ from my experience.

But i am still new to this...this is just my observation so far.

I do enjoy JJJ alot, but if i could find better classes for BJJ i woul be there in a heart beat.
 
Ghostrider said:
OK I disagree. This is similar to the my art is better than yours. I disagree that it is essentially better. I agree that most BJJ pracitioners could dominate versus a JJJ on the ground. Stand up? No.
so the question is better at what? self-defense? groundfighting? Standup?

What happens when a JJJ player concentrates on ground game? Will he automatically lose if that in essence, is his specialty? Then again we go to who we are talking about here. A competitive young athlete or a middle age person looking increase his readiness in case of a self-defense situation?

I may be wrong and so be it. I think the individual's physical fitness, goals, and level of knowledge do have something to do with this.
Click to expand...




basically what im trying to say:


get a guy who's trained BJJ for 10 years

get a guy who's trained JJJ for 10 years


let them fight with no striking.


bjj guy kills JJJ guy with choke or some other type of submission 9 out of 10 times.




I feel JJ techniques are outdated and not very effective against a fully resistant opponent. I also feel that modern MA's > traditional ones because modern MA's have much more practical techniques and are always changing/evolving
 
FutureBxer said:
basically what im trying to say:


get a guy who's trained BJJ for 10 years

get a guy who's trained JJJ for 10 years


let them fight with no striking.


bjj guy kills JJJ guy with choke or some other type of submission 9 out of 10 times.
Click to expand...

I do not disagree with your premise. I do think it is too broad. Maybe it would be 9 out of 10 times or even six out of ten. The statistics still lean in BJJ favor if this makes sense. Regardless, I totally agree that BJJ is better at sport, not necessarily as an overall art as the essential goals are different.

Once again that depends on who we are talking about here. I agree as most here have or will experience: Many if not most, JJJ players do not concentrate on competing. This being the case, BJJ player with 1-2 years beats JJJ of 10 years.

A competitor would be different as this could easily be equall setting then odds ar 50/50.

Regardless, I like the direction of both sports. One for self-defense, one for sport even though BJJ is effective in self defense too although most schools lean more to the competitive side IMO. Having said that, I am heading to my BJJ class now (seriously). :icon_chee

UPDATE: NO -GI class. grappling at Eastern Academy of Martial Arts (www.easternacademy.com) Good crowd taught by saulo ribeiro purple belt (Alan Merullo). My groundfighting is at a white belt level :icon_neut >>rolled with white belt and blue belt BJJ. I barely survived. stamina I was OK. It was drills. stay in mount, pass guard, stay in guard>> if your opponent mounted, stayed in guard and or bellied up when in side mount, you went to the end of the line. I got triangled once (still hurts) and went against an all american wrestler / better BJJer who outweighed me and definitely knew how to use his weight. I only lasted two iterations once. They said my wrestling was good Unfortunately , this was not wrestling and it was No-Gi jiu jitsu. Good learning.

I proved the BJJ ground better than JJJ theory. :icon_sad:

Stand up is hard to prove because most BJJ guys I praticed with back home (one purple the rest vary from advanced white to blue) just sit down (and then it becomes pure groundfighting. I practice 6 days a week although not enough drills which I will work on to improve. This is a great trip, tomorrow I might try Gustavo Machado's down in Virginia Beach (depending on his schedule and mat fees) or if I get lazy try their Muay thai class and thursday gi class. mat fee $12
 
Jiu-Jitsu Cop said:
I think it depends on the fighter. I sounds like the person he fought just sucked. I would not put down a style based only on fighting that one person. I have easly submitted BJJ black belts and have been submitted by white belts. It would not be fair if I based all of BJJ on the times that I beat the black belts. He should go fight more of their students, hey at least it would be a great workout.
Click to expand...


I also wanted to say you're a liar

after reading your whole post I highly doubt you "easily" submitted BJJ black belts(or submitted them at all) and then got tapped out by white belts.



if you're going to lie, at least make it look believable.
 
FutureBxer said:
I also wanted to say you're a liar

after reading your whole post I highly doubt you "easily" submitted BJJ black belts(or submitted them at all) and then got tapped out by white belts.



if you're going to lie, at least make it look believable.
Click to expand...


I travel quite a bit and practice in different locations. I have yet to see a BJJ black belt get submitted by a lesser belt period much less by a white belt. While anything can happen, and I will fall short of calling anyone a liar, a white belt stating that he submitted a BJJ blackbelt needs more than his sayso. I ask for proof.

JJJ on the ground is possible. BJJ? Nope. I went against a BJJ purple belt not too long ago. I am still hurting even though I tapped quickly. I can't imagine a blackbelt.

BTW, I do agree with the part of the post by Jiu-jitsu cop. You can't judge a martial art by just fighting one person.
 
I've got a friend who does JJJ in Hawaii and he talks about groin strikes, strikes to the throat, eye rakes and pressure points. He says that they're ground isn't as worked on and throws aren't that extensive either, more striking and quickly subdueing your opponent.

You have to remember that the samurai did Jiu-Jitsu and to do a throw or a submission like an armbar during a battle with all that armor didn't seem practical.
 
Yes and no. According to some friends who practice JJJ, a samurai was also very likely to throw a guy and hold him down while his buddies finished the other guy off with their weapon of choice. I do not have any historical documents (no proof on this so lets call it speculation or hypothesis until then) although this does sound like an interesting subject to research.
 
otsukafan said:
Frodo,

You are very close minded for a martial artist...Snake Boxing does not make use of submission holds like other ground fighting methods. It prefers to attack and disable the opponent through breaking joints, disabling muscles and tendons or paralyzing with knockout blows to pressure points.
Click to expand...

Hey Doc.
I assume your completely serious about this, so my question is what do you think happens if the opponent doesn't submit? Something breaks! Trust me, I speak from experience. The Americana that snapped my arm like a twig left me pretty freakin' disabled...For 9 months! (Spiral fracture of the Humorous, thank god it wasn't my shoulder!) Needless to say, I learned to tap that night.
 
otsukafan said:
Very few grappling arts understand the use of balance, pressure points and real joint locks. When I say joint locks I mean breaking things not bending things.

Thats why I study Tibetan Snake Boxing. Nothing wrong with BJJ to get you started, but if you want to complete your grappling training come see me at the Gompa.

http://www.thegompa.com/specialty.html

John Painter PHD
Click to expand...



i love you ashida kim.
 
Well, ignoring the belts (in most styles belts just mean time in rank, sort of like the service stripes in the military), the problem I've seen with most JJJ artists is that they spend very little time in alive training. Which means, in most cases, they're not nearly as good as an equivalent time BJJ'er either on the ground or standing (though there are a few BJJ clubs which do almost no standing so then that's a wash). On the ground especially, they're no where close to BJJ standards, and standing, most are what you'd expect to see if you took judo and never did any randori.

As for the guy that regularily taps BJJ black belts ... BJJ is the one art in which belt ranks actually do mean something. Tapping a BJJ black belt is equivalent to beating national level judoka or wrestler in standup ... it can be done by outsiders, especially if there's a weight difference, but those outsiders are going to be olympic level athletes (ie Fedor will tap some BJJ black belts, especially small guys), but if you're doing it regularly and you're not a BJJ black belt yourself, I'm assuming you're an olympic level judoka or an olympic level wrestler who's spent time in submission grappling, or a top level MMA guy like Josh Barnett :rolleyes:
 
Most JJJ schools here in the US suck. It's not the art, it's the way it's taught. If you go to schools in Japan, they practice randori, and it's hard and brutal. Very few stick with a Ryu through to Shodan, becuase the training is so hard. My Daito Ryu instructor has rolled with a cpl Gracies and i've seen footage, and he could hold his own. If he'd learn JJ in the US he'd probably be your typical bullshido instructor.
 
JJJ has almost every technique that BJJ has, they are just handicapped by the fact that they practice those techniques like retards. They are like guys that try to get better at basketball by playing HORSE. It works against guys that never play basketball or HORSE, but against anyone who actually practices playing basketball, they will get schooled. There are probably legit JJJ badasses out there that spar hard, but I've never seen one. They are like the mythical wing chunners who possess "teh r3al wing chun!", which can stop grapplers in their tracks and KO mike tyson with a single arm punch. This is the whole point of what makes Judo a separate martial art. They spar alive, JJJ does not. This question was answered in the 1800s when Judo first kicked the ass of JJJ.
 
Commissar said:
Did you fight under BJJ rules? Or was he allowed using the moves he learnt in Japanese Jujitsu?

If he was allowed all his wristlocks, pressure point attacks, and the like, you'd probably get crushed.

He trains under his rules, you train under yours. When he fights under yours, it's new to him.
Click to expand...

Wristlocks?? give me a break, frodo trains judo...judo > wrist locks
 
My friend with no grappling experience told me he got his JJJ instructor with an armbar. He then told me he liked grappling, and I said why the fuck are u going with an instructor you can submit then?
 
nathan marquardt is the only mma fighter i know with a black belt in jjj, so i am assuming in some places their are teaching jjj that can hang with bjj. (and yes i know nate also has a bjj black belt but he got his jjj black belt first)
 
This thread was started on 01-18-2006, 10:24 PM just to let you know. Why bring up posts from more than a year ago?
 
Commissar said:
Did you fight under BJJ rules? Or was he allowed using the moves he learnt in Japanese Jujitsu?

If he was allowed all his wristlocks, pressure point attacks, and the like, you'd probably get crushed.

He trains under his rules, you train under yours. When he fights under yours, it's new to him.
Click to expand...




or how about japanese jiu jitsu is not very effective on a fully resisting opponent? especially when ur trying to wrist lock a person from standing position who knows even basic BJJ and basic joint manipulation?


in a fair world though youd be correct, unfortunately this is real life and bjj > japanese JJ.


pressure points? lol.....
 
n1k said:
Of course, JJJ got completely owned by Judo when the Japanese were deciding to select which one would be learned by their police force so there is definitely some validty to the argument that it isnt that good.

(I do agree however that there is way too much trashing of arts without any real evidence going on these days)
Click to expand...

I don't think it's that simple. Kano's top students actually came from other JJ systems, for example Saigo and Yokoyama. Also judo wasn't an entirely new MA. It was an amalgamation of techniques from a wide range of JJ systems. Furthermore there were scores of JJ schools at that time so it's hard to make a comparison of JJJ to other MA's. Which JJJ are you comparing?

I believe the key as others have pointed out is that Kano instituted randori or sparring as an integral part of judo practice. Without it, you are left with a static art that you cannot readily demonstrate on a resisting opponent.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,237,099
Messages
55,467,528
Members
174,786
Latest member
plasterby

Share this page

Back
Top