Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Jimmy Cerra, Jan 18, 2006.
I belive the second part, but not the first.
well this thread has gone down the same retarted path that all the jjj vs bjj threads go down.
humans evolved from apes. apes had opposable thumbs first, apes could walk upright first. therefore, apes = humans.
hi i was wondering if anyone would give me advice on this check dis site out and da the escapes and submission 1 from "manu" do you think i should go for that dvd to find out more escapes from submissions or one of the BJJ dvds cheershttp://www.immortal.co.uk/martial-arts-videos-dvds.asp?c_urn=108&show=VHS
hey what happened to the snack boxer?
I'm not sure what you mean here because you mix the English spellings and then talk about Japanese. So maybe others didn't understand this either.
In Japanese the characters for what we call "jiu jitsu" are the same as the characters for "juu jutsu". However, they usually put "Brazilian" in front of it when writing at least as well as referring to the art as BJJ. My club is most definitely a BJJ club and BJJ is a thriving sport here.
The whole juu jyuu jiu thing seems to be a romanisation problem anyway.
tequilaman has no idea what he's talking about. If you read his first post and then the wikipidea definition he later posted, he contradicts himself over and over.
Shit in the first post he spelled JJJ as "jiu jitsu" Now he's all about the "jujutsu"
By the way, Pride takes place in Japan (huge duh) and yeah, when a BJJ guy fights it's listed as BJJ.
Almost anyone in mma practices BJJ. What is the difference between Jiu Jitsu, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have tried to search this subject, but I couldn't find much comparing the two arts.
Quit hijacking other peoples' threads and do your own search.
try the other thread on this page with a few pages of discussion in it before making your own thread.
there was an identicle thread that must still be on the first or second page...let this one die people.
thx for pointing me in the right direction, and die thread.
And when you go to a Jiu Jitsu tourney in Japan, they call it a "Juu Jutsu tourney" and not a "BJJ tourney" buddy. Since you have never lived in Japan nor have ever particpated in Jiu jitsu tourney, how do you know I do not know what I am talking about.
And for the record, Jiu Jitsu is the American spelling, and Juu Jutsu is the correct romanization of the word that American mis-pronounce and misspell.
BJJ is style of Jiu Jitsu buddy. Its a derivative.
And I suppose Wanderlei does "chute Boxing" because that is what the American version of a Pride event says... Riiiiiiight...... Buy a clue.
yes, we call it a jiu jitsu tourie here as well, simply because there is no need for stating the obvious. In Brazil they call it the same. Once again, because adding "Brazilian" to it is redundant.
"American spelling" hahahaha. Thanks for proving you know shit. If you knew shit, you'd know that different styles of jujutsu/jujitsu/jui jitsu, etc. are spelled quite differently. It is BJJ (with very few exceptions) which translates to "jiu jitsu" in English. (Not 'American' you jackass)
No, BJJ is not a style of jutjutsu any more than Karate is. The argument "well it's the same because they share a history" doesn't work. Sorry to break it to you. For instance: Biologists argue that the first land mammals came out of the ocean. This does not make a rat a whale. Get my drift? You probably dont, because you dont seem that bright.
"Chute Box" is not his style, it's his school. He's usually listed (at least in the earler PRIDE events) as being a "muay thai fighter" "Chute Boxing" is sometimes listed as his style to pay respect to where he trains, and rub it in the face of their arch rivals, brazilian top team.
Jujutsu essentially means "gentle art" that is why the Gracies basterdized the name. And as I mentioned before, no one actually trains authentic japanese jujutsu anymore, almost all of the essentials to the style have been lost over time. Kano and his boys showed how ineffective what was left over is, by beating the everloving crap out of the JJJ guys around at the time.
oh, and I forgot to tell you, most now at days are under the opinion that everything that was japanese jujutsu, was actually stolen from India. This is where most current research dictates the oldest martial arts stem from.
There you have it, BJJ is indian!
Oh, and in japanese, jujutsu and jiu jitsu are spelled the same. So what the fuck are you even rambling about? Nothing at all in my book. Love how you've flip flopped all of your views after reading the wikipidia definition which contained literally all the information I gave to you my first post in this thread.
EDIT: I should add that pankration might pre-date all other known martial arts, my bad.
SHERDOGGERS: Watch me intellectually bitch slap the self-proclaimed "jitsuman" here into submission. He talks out of his ass, and I can prove it.
Dearest Jiu Jitsu Juu Jutsu Jyuu Jutsu Jack ass:
Yes, thank you for agreeing with what I already said Mr. Obvious. We agree here.
****YOu are clearly talking out of your ass here, because those are NOT DIFFERENT STYLES MORON. Those are different Romanizations of the Japanese language. There are several main systems of Romanization, which create different spellings of a Japanese word. For example, "juu", or ten, can be spelled "jyuu, juu, or even ju". So your BS about different styles is false, and yes, the American English spelling of Juu-jutsu (which is the proper spellng under the Mombusho romanization system) is "jiu-jitsu".
Jiu Jitsu is the commonly accepted American English spelling of the Japanese word juu-jutsu. YOu can use them interchangably if you want, but most people use and recognize "jiu-jitsu" as the most common spelling of this Japanese word.
You have no idea what I am talking about do you? Right over your head! Catch it with your jiu-jitsu skills jitsuman!
For more on different Romanization systems, click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization#Japanese
WTF are you talking about ???? BJJ is not a derivative of Jiu Jitsu??? Like I said Jack ass, just like language, all martial arts are derivative. Look up the word "derivative" please. It means "comes from" Your argument is illogical. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Judo which came from traditional jiu jitsu. Moron. Jiu jitsu is in the name "Brazilian Jiu jitsu" and you don't think it comes from JJJ???
(I was being sarcastic. Look up the word sarcastic too.)
(Judo means "gentle art" where as jiu-jitsu means "gentle technique. I suppose you think that Judo doesn't come from Jiu Jitsu either? And yes, people don't train for sword attacks in JJJ anymore either.
(Proof please? Grappling is found in nearly all ancient societies- Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Chinese... I doubt you can say that Jiu Jitsu has a direct lineage to India.)
Because they are the same word and the same thing. They are NOT two things spelled the differently. It is two different English spellings of the same exact thing- JUU JUTSU.
You must be a Republican. Only idiot Republicans actually use the term "flip-flop" as a verb.
Face it dude. You're speaking with someone with a Master's Degree in Japanese studies who has practiced Judo and Jiu Jitsu (accepted American English spelling of juu-jutsu, fool) for 10 years. You will never beat me in grappling, fighting, or debating.
(AND FOR THOSE OF YOU DOUBTING MY CREDENTIALS...
HERE IS MY MASTER'S FROM DUKE U...
AND HERE IS MY STATE CHAMPIONSHIP (1st) BLUE BELT 161 FROM FLORIDA STATE'S 2002. I am a "little" better since then.
Sorry guys. In a bad mood tonight. Had to do it. Sorry 'bout the asshole postings...
Way to rant and give more false statements, then fall back on a callege degree instead of answering points.
1. Despite your mental retardation, jujutsu means Jujutsu (also jujitsu, ju jutsu, ju jitsu, or jiu jitsu; from the Japanese 柔術 jūjutsu "gentle/yielding/compliant Art") As taken from your own wikipedia citation. you'll notice it says "art" not "technique" Contradicting yourself again? You want me to believe you're a scholar when you dont even know what jujitsu means?
2. Yes, there are many different styles and ryu's of jujutsu/jui jitsu/jiu jitsu Etc. Hakko Ryu, Daito Ryu, Nihon jujutsu, for examples. Gendai jujutsu is "modern jujutsu" and differs greatly from the former. The fact that you dont know this is kind of pathetic. That you think you're giving me a verball beating is worse. Do your homework. Ryu means "school" and each different school taught different techniques and a different way of doing them. That's what a 'style' means. Again, from your wikipedia article: There are today many distinctly westernized styles of jujitsu, a few of which stick to the roots and basics of ancient Ju Jitsu, but many of which do not.
3. using "romanization" as an excuse for why you fail to understand the obvious point that much of what is "original jujutsu" and the translated spellings surrounding it are UNKNOWN AND HIGHLY DESPUTED is rediculous. There exists much debate about how jujutsu SHOULD be spelled and you've made it quite obvious you dont know the half of it. Even the very wikipidea article you cite is under review for this very reason.
4. Jiu Jitsu is NOT the commonly accepted American English spelling of the japanese art. I'm not sure where you live, but here in NY if it says "jiu jitsu" it's probably regarding the Brazilian art. I've seen it spelled MANY ways. Would you like me to start posting American jujutsu schools who spell it totally different? I'd be happy to. I dont think I have to, because if you do a basic google search for ALL the spellings we've both given, you'll find hundreds of schools in the US using all the different spellings. There goes that poit of yours, eh?
5.More flip-flopping!! (no, I'm not republican) now you're claiming that BJJ was DERIVED from jujutsu!! Now of course I completely agree with you! But that's a whole lot different from your original claim that "BJJ IS japanese jujutsu" "The techniques are the same!" blah blah blah. One statement is true, one is false. The reason I gave you the rat/whale analogy was to point that out (guess I was right, you're too stupid to get it) While rats are not whales, it can be said that rats and whales derived from a common anscestor. I hope you get it now, but I doubt it.
6. Nope, I dont think BJJ comes from JJJ, and again the very article YOU posted from wikipedia agrees with me: "The Brazilian Gracie jujutsu system, and all Brazilian jujutsu in general, although derived originally from Judo" oops, there's that DERIVED WORD AGAIN! (looks like it's not me who missed it's meaning. The article then goes on to say that BJJ *could* be considered to be an example of goshin jujutsu. Do you know what Goshin means? It's right there in the article as well. It does NOT mean traditional japanese jujutsu.
7. Still convinced you're right? :icon_twis
8. WHo the fuck cares if you wona "State championship" (whatever the fuck that means) in BJJ, you're full of shit.
9. How did you get a masters and still be so clueless?
All that matters is whether or not you know what your doing. If you're taught by someone who knows what he's doing and knows how to teach you, it doesn't matter what style of jiu-jitsu you are being taught. The basics are pretty much the same, and fundamental soundness is the key to being a good grappler. If you are a dedicated student, and you train hard and pay attention to the details of grappling, It won't matter if you are a BJJ student, a JJJ student or whatever. If two guys go at it, the better fighter will usually win. There is no evidence that any type of jiu jitsu is better. I stated earlier that I submitted two BJJ guys just to prove that I was a better fighter, and that's all that mattered. It didn't matter what style of jiu jitsu we knew, or how long we had been training. It all came down to the fact that I most likely trained harder, studied the sport more, and practiced more efficiently. So, don't go bullshitting people that you know that your style is better than the other. If someone knows more than you and trains harder, he will most likely beat you.
Do you like being wrong? Because you repeatedly make false statements and incorrect claims. Let me count the ways Mr. College student... :redface:
(You are wrong Jackass. "Justu" means "the practice or perfection of technique" or "art", and "dou" as in "Juudou" (Judo) means "way" or "path". Judo means the "gentle way" whereas Ju-jutsu means the "gentle technique". Why do you insist on being wrong? Again, you are not as smart as you think you are Mr. College student.
"Jutsu" Definition: Art. However in more detail, Jutsu is a suffix used for styles that focus more on perfection of technique and its use on the battlefield than "Do" styles, which tend to focus more on knowing and developing ones self. http://martialarts.about.com/od/japanesebasics/g/Jutsu.htm )
(WHo says I don't know this? Didn't you just say that they are as different as apples are to oranges? THat they completely have nothing to do with each other? THat is what you said, isn't it? They have nothing to do with each other.
WHich is it? YOU say that they are one in the same below, and here you say that they don't share the same history even?
OK. You're finally starting to get things right. But I am sure you copy and pasted that from a dcitionary...
Ummm.. what the hell are you talking about? You said
and I am calling utter Bullshite.
This is made up. There are no different spellings for different schools of jiu jitsu. YOu made this up, and I call your bull shit you bullshitting bullshitter.
You, "If you knew shit, you'd know that different styles of jujutsu/jujitsu/jui jitsu, etc. are spelled quite differently." Funny, funny stuff.
Go back to the drawing board Timmy.
You are probably right this once. But we weren't arguing about this point, but thanks for the distraction. Yes, there are many different spellings of jiu jitsu. My last two schools (Gracie Barra and a Royce school) both spelled it "jiu jitsu", but I am SO SURE YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM... (that's sarcasm buddy...)
You are a liar. I said that first, and then you came back at me incorrectly claiming that BJJ is NOT a derivative of JJJ. I have been saying since post 1 that BJJ comes from JJJ, and you say...
here is your quote infidel:
Lost over time? Pick up a f-cking Jiu Jitsu manual you fool. Please learn about what you claim to be an expert on. Most of the techniques that we do in BJJ come from old school JJJ (arm bars, arm locks, submissions, choke holds, positioning, many of the judo throws, and a LOT more).
Jesus I can't believe I am putting this much effort in schooling a college kid!
I said this buddy...
Yeah, I get it. Great analogy, BUT WRONG. They are only 100 years apart, not millions of years fool. Like I said, "JJJ is the grand-father of BJJ".
What the fudge is it College kid? Is it from JJJ like above? Or like here Mr. Flip Flopper:
I am sure that you looked up the definition and know what it means! Ha!
I am right, and you are wrong. And I obviously schooled someone who shouldn't even be on the mat with me... :icon_twis
It shows I have been doing this a lot longer than you. And I am better and cooler than you.
God that was fun as kicking someone's ass...
Sorry guys. I know it is immature to have internet flame wars, but I had to do it. He annoyed me.
HAHA, I like how I'm a 'moron' and 'wrong' For posting the definitions YOU gave directly from Wikipedia. Surely you HAD to notice that's what I was doing, right?
I'm not a college kid, you imbecile. and your entire post is essentially you admitting I'm
right, but being a total moron about it. Thanks a lot for that.
and yes, your first statement was to madmonkeyBJJ was "dude! BJJ IS JJJ"
I've proven over and over that you dont know what you're talking about, yet you post shit that agree's with my argument, not yours, and try to make me out to be a "college kid claiming to be an expert"
So lets see:
1. You were wrong about the correct romanized spelling of jujutsu. You've been going on and on about ramanization and how it's really "accepted in American English as jiu jitsu" WHen you're completely wrong. Are you going to sit here and claim that you were the one arguing that the accepted translation was "jujutsu"? No, that was me, you've been arguing AGAINST THAT POINT You were wrong. I was right. Move on. The fact is, that this is wht we've been arguing about the entire damn time. Why can't you just shut up, bow respectfully, and admitt you were wrong? And that you learned something?
2. You were wrong about what it means. Despite your squirming, "art" is the best ENGLISH interpretation of the word, as you kinda/sorta pussyfoot around. You're sitting here saying "well art can kinda mean technique, and er..." Just stop it. It's "art" not "technique" you were wrong, get over it. IT MEANS ART GOD DAMN IT. "Art" just happens to mean "perfecting technique" but that has nothing to do with anything.
3. You were wrong about the number and nature of the various Ryu's of jujutsu. There are and have been many, some think up to 800 over the course of japanese history. YOU HAVE NOT LEARNED ANCIENT JAPANESE JUJUTSU! You know as much about it as me, jack shit.
4. Your claim "want to see original jujutsu, look at a manual!" is nonsense, are no manuals of it date back that far. It is indeed factual that many people disagree as to what was originally taught. No one knows for sure.
5. Gracie Barra etc. are BRAZILIAN jiu jitsu schools, of course that's how they spell it you retard. The reason it is spelled like that, is because the Gracies used an INCORRECT/OUTDATED ramanization of the word. (the one you've been incorrectly using) The debate at hand is about japanese jujutsu, you lost it, I PM'd you with plenty of links to prove you did. Time to move on.
5. Judo means gentle WAY (as you fully admit here) yet in your previous post you claim judo means gentle ART. Judo means "gentle art" where as jiu-jitsu means "gentle technique" the quote in bold is your response in post #48. (quick go edit your post!) Judo is a "way" Jujutsu is an "art" get it through your thick skull.
6. You're wrong about my age. I'm 26. Ad Hominem debate tactics are the last resort of a desperate individual
7. you're wrong about the very nature of traditional japanese jujutsu. It is primarily a **stand up grappling art** BJJ is a groud grappling art. There is a difference. While it is true that many of the same techniques were probably there, that doesot make the same at all, or even similiar. Both Kung Fu and Boxing have punches. They're entirely different arts.
8. calling me "college kid" and "retard" when I'm actually taking the time to set you straight, is annoying. You've made many stupid claims, I've set you straight. You've now started to use MY arguments as if they were yours. as if you were teaching *me*
9. I never flip-flopped, you just took my statement out of context. The whole analoggy I have with the rat and whale describes how you can be derived from something through common anscestry, and how it differes from coming from directly. BJJ is derived from JJJ in that they both share a linking with Judo. Judo comes directly from JJJ, BJJ comes non-directly from mainstream Judo. (it was a particular style of judo the gracies learned, Kosen Judo) The reality of the situation is that Wrestling has much more influence with modern BJJ than traditional japanese jujutsu does
10. I already asked you to continue this with me in PM, but it seems that in order to save face you've continued this here. Please stop.
I agree with you. I train at Mike moses' skool. He is sick. I am a wee bit bigger than him, and a lot younger. I have nothing to bring to him, I never get close to even putting him in a bad position. In fact he usually looks at other people to see how they are doing while he is rolling. I am fairly good BJJ guy myself too. I train competetin level(I do MMA and some no-gi), and I have to agree, I feel as though it is my first day still. Todd Margolis is also crazy good. I have rolled with him a few times, he is very good too. I have nerv rolled with Lloyd, but I am going to assume he is a monster.
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