Crime Jan 6 feelings

Texas man un-sent messages bragging about storming the Capitol and told friends to delete the videos he sent them, DOJ says

US law enforcement arrested a man who un-sent messages boasting about storming the Capitol on January 6, 2021, the Justice Department said in a Tuesday statement.

Brian Jackson, 47, and his brother, Adam Jackson, 42, were arrested on Tuesday on charges of assaulting police, the DOJ said. They are both residents of Katy, Texas, the DOJ said.

Brian Jackson "hurled a flagpole at officers" on the Capitol complex, the DOJ said, while Adam Jackson "charged at the line of officers with what appeared to be a US Capitol Police riot shield."

According to filings made by the FBI officer assigned to the case, Brian Jackson "also attempted to delete evidence."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-man-un-sent-messages-103144663.html

Apparently you can un-send messages somehow lol. not sure how thats supposed to work? is that just some fancy way to describe the feds recovering his deleted text messages after they seized his phone? or maybe theyre using some other funky way to communicate?

nonetheless, this fine short-bus maga muppet on another spectrum assaulted a police officer with a flagpole, and he won't be getting his stupid ass un-arrested. law and order baby! back the blue! blue lives matter!
 
Trump Attorney John Eastman Ordered to Hand Over Batch of Emails and Documents to the Jan. 6 Committee

Published Jun. 08, 2022 7:01AM ET

A lawyer who advised Donald Trump on his elaborate plan to stay in power after losing the 2020 presidential election was ordered to hand over 159 more documents to House investigators, including sensitive records tied to “potential crimes.”

The ruling late Tuesday by a federal judge in California comes as the committee probing the January 2021 assault on the Capitol by a mob of Trump supporters prepares to hold its first public hearing on Thursday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...red-to-hand-over-159-documents-in-jan-6-probe

 
From my outsiders perspective I see America as a highly flawed Camelot that will either:

- continue on with it's journey to Froopyland eventually ending up like the other previous Babylon's
-save the world by pulling some 11th hour flying heel-hook shit on some Aliens (after Carter Burkeing the Kurds)

Also:
Bad Brains > Suicidal Tendencies >...........................................Dead Kennedy's

Oh my god bro.

I'll give you Bad Brains, but Suicidal is better than DK? Blasphemy my man.

Jello Biafra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mike funky town metal muir
 
What's the difference between a soft coup and a hard coup?

What's the difference between attempted murder and a charge of murder? If you completely fail to kill someone, but demonstrated a willingness too and took steps to do so, is that not a crime?
 
What's the difference between attempted murder and a charge of murder? If you completely fail to kill someone, but demonstrated a willingness too and took steps to do so, is that not a crime?
Its only a crime if you fail. These things can't be done halfway; thats why I find it hard to believe it was a coup attempt. Its just too patently ridiculous to ever succeed.
 
With all due respect, I don't think you "understand all that".

a. I'm not going to try and explain it here. I pointed out there's been plenty of discussion about it if you're interested, and if you're more comfortable dismissing it as conspiratorial fantasy, I hope you're right. I don't think you are. I spent decades arguing with conspiracy theorists and appreciate that it is entirely possible I've been radicalized, and honestly that's a best case scenario for me, I would prefer to be crazy than right. I'm the first in my family born in Canada and my parents both came from fascist regimes, all the elements are in place for America to go down the same road.

b. I never did that. The politicians ginned them up and the extremists took advantage. I blame the rioters for the crimes they committed but reserve accusations of treason for the extremists and politicians.

The supreme court super majority depresses me because that's the ball game for decades. It's the single most important piece of the machinery that enforces the tyranny of the minority. Trump never needed justification, he was already locking up protestors; conservatives complain that BLM protestors weren't punished but thousands of them were arrested without having broken a single law, and now they have the means to change the laws.

Yes I do understand it.

a. I have no doubts there was a conspiracy afoot. Many of the conspirators themselves have been fairly open about the mechanisms that they thought were available to them to keep Trump in office. The point is, none of that had a hope in hell of working. The only way Trump was staying in office after losing that election would have been for the generals and the military to organize a forceful coup. Nothing short of that was ever going to do it. Not Mike Pence refusing to certify votes. Not legal challenges about drop boxes. Not the storming of the capital by a mob of rubes to halt the electoral college vote. It was all crazy talk. On Jan 20, come hell or high water, Trump was moving out. He'd have been removed by his own secret service if he thought otherwise. Even among other Republican leaders and bureaucrats and military leaders there wasn't the stomach for a civil war and military coup.

b. We agree on this entirely. Don't allow what I've written above to make you think I believe that just because it had no hope of working that the people who planned to overthrow a democratic election shouldn't be treated and prosecuted as traitors. It's the bloodlust for the protesters turned rioters who got caught up in an angry mob and did the sorts of crazy things that a lot of people tend to find themselves doing when they get caught up in angry mobs that I don't like. Charge them as you charge people who get caught up in angry mobs.

I agree with you about the politicization of the court, as well, and about the successful long game that the Republicans have played in bad faith to take over control of a branch of government that has outsized power beyond the will of the people. I don't agree with you in the slightest that anyone in at least the past half century has ever gone after left wing protesters and rioters the way that these people are being prosecuted. We're talking about being held for months without bail, getting jail time for just being there, chasing 2 or 3 year sentences for anyone who actively pushed through a barrier. You can say that BLM protestors and rioters received the same treatment, but I'd sure like to see some evidence if I'm expected to believe it. It's a bad precedent to set.
 
Its only a crime if you fail. These things can't be done halfway; thats why I find it hard to believe it was a coup attempt. Its just too patently ridiculous to ever succeed.

If I'm too stupid to figure out a viable plan to rob a bank and get away with it (ie., my plan would never succeed), and yet one day I bust in to Wells Fargo, announce that I'm here to rob the bank and access the vault, proceed to smash through the cashier barrier, and then just so happen to get arrested before I can actually steal anything, does that absolve me of having committed a crime? Would I simply be charged with trespassing?

Or, if I'm too stupid to learn how to load a gun properly, and I bring it over to your house after leaving notes and social media messages stating that I'm going to kill you, point it at your head, and squeeze the trigger only to find out that I missed, or didn't load the ammunition properly (meaning you didn't get shot because of my inability to execute a successful plan), does that mean I would NOT face an attempted murder charge simply because I was too much of a nincompoop to execute?

I will grant you that I don't have too much ill will towards the average citizen who broke in to the capital - as others pointed out they were a bunch of useful idiots following a herd mentality. They should be charged with trespassing and vandalism at the most.

What I do have a problem with is people like Trump attempting to establish fake electors, or calling state governors and pleading with them to cheat the vote so he could win. Just because Trump's an idiot and couldn't pull it off does not absolve him of a crime.

If you have any experience with the American legal system, intent is heavily accounted for when factoring charges. Not the validity of that intent, or the viable execution of, just the initial intent.
 
Its only a crime if you fail. These things can't be done halfway; thats why I find it hard to believe it was a coup attempt. Its just too patently ridiculous to ever succeed.
What are your thoughts on Eastman's plan regarding alternate electors and the fact that groups associated with Trump like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers both plotted to interrupt the certification process?

I provided the definition for you earlier because I think you're asking questions in good faith. If it can be established that people within the government were planning a way to keep Biden from being inaugurated, to give Trump a chance to be announced the actual winner by loyalists in government, would you consider that a soft coup attempt?
 
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I either call bullshit on this (most likely bullshit) or your friend is mentally ill. I don't believe there are normal people who think this way.
You do know where in the US I live, right? You ca call bullshit all you like, you little ray of sunshine.
 
Yes I do understand it.

a. I have no doubts there was a conspiracy afoot. Many of the conspirators themselves have been fairly open about the mechanisms that they thought were available to them to keep Trump in office. The point is, none of that had a hope in hell of working. The only way Trump was staying in office after losing that election would have been for the generals and the military to organize a forceful coup. Nothing short of that was ever going to do it. Not Mike Pence refusing to certify votes. Not legal challenges about drop boxes. Not the storming of the capital by a mob of rubes to halt the electoral college vote. It was all crazy talk. On Jan 20, come hell or high water, Trump was moving out. He'd have been removed by his own secret service if he thought otherwise. Even among other Republican leaders and bureaucrats and military leaders there wasn't the stomach for a civil war and military coup.

b. We agree on this entirely. Don't allow what I've written above to make you think I believe that just because it had no hope of working that the people who planned to overthrow a democratic election shouldn't be treated and prosecuted as traitors. It's the bloodlust for the protesters turned rioters who got caught up in an angry mob and did the sorts of crazy things that a lot of people tend to find themselves doing when they get caught up in angry mobs that I don't like. Charge them as you charge people who get caught up in angry mobs.

I agree with you about the politicization of the court, as well, and about the successful long game that the Republicans have played in bad faith to take over control of a branch of government that has outsized power beyond the will of the people. I don't agree with you in the slightest that anyone in at least the past half century has ever gone after left wing protesters and rioters the way that these people are being prosecuted. We're talking about being held for months without bail, getting jail time for just being there, chasing 2 or 3 year sentences for anyone who actively pushed through a barrier. You can say that BLM protestors and rioters received the same treatment, but I'd sure like to see some evidence if I'm expected to believe it. It's a bad precedent to set.


I'm at work and can't address this properly but I can leave you with this.

Records rebut claims of unequal treatment of Jan. 6 rioters
 
If I'm too stupid to figure out a viable plan to rob a bank and get away with it (ie., my plan would never succeed), and yet one day I bust in to Wells Fargo, announce that I'm here to rob the bank and access the vault, proceed to smash through the cashier barrier, and then just so happen to get arrested before I can actually steal anything, does that absolve me of having committed a crime? Would I simply be charged with trespassing?

Or, if I'm too stupid to learn how to load a gun properly, and I bring it over to your house after leaving notes and social media messages stating that I'm going to kill you, point it at your head, and squeeze the trigger only to find out that I missed, or didn't load the ammunition properly (meaning you didn't get shot because of my inability to execute a successful plan), does that mean I would NOT face an attempted murder charge simply because I was too much of a nincompoop to execute?

I will grant you that I don't have too much ill will towards the average citizen who broke in to the capital - as others pointed out they were a bunch of useful idiots following a herd mentality. They should be charged with trespassing and vandalism at the most.

What I do have a problem with is people like Trump attempting to establish fake electors, or calling state governors and pleading with them to cheat the vote so he could win. Just because Trump's an idiot and couldn't pull it off does not absolve him of a crime.

If you have any experience with the American legal system, intent is heavily accounted for when factoring charges. Not the validity of that intent, or the viable execution of, just the initial intent.
Good post. What amazes me is these idiots still support him after inciting a riot and not pardoning them..homie only cares about himself...he's a malignant narcissist after all

I'm not really invested in politics.. last time I voted was Obama 2008 (for the hope and change but nothing changed) but trump dude is anti Christ IMO cant believe he has supporters
 
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Have your weird friend committed.
I was the first person they saw when they walked into my building every day so of course people are going to talk to me about something so horrible when they see me every morning. We would chat about music, anything in the news. It was disgusting behaviour what took place.

Saying gay people need to be committed is pretty irrational and frankly out of order.
 
What are your thoughts on Eastman's plan regarding alternate electors and the fact that groups associated with Trump like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers both plotted to interrupt the certification process?

I provided the definition for you earlier because I think you're asking questions in good faith. If it can be established that people within the government were planning a way to keep Biden from being inaugurated, to give Trump a chance to be announced the actual winner by loyalists in government, would you consider that a soft coup attempt?

Sure, but something like that would require significant majority support among the powers that be. The courts and military not siding with Trump should have been a warning that something like that was not going to work.

Even so, that really wouldn't be a coup, just a stolen election, although that may just be semantics.

Just to play with something like that, I could easily see, in a close election, some strategy to mess with the electors at the state level or use court injunctions about throwing out certain ballots working. However, that candidate would have signals through the courts or state officials that such a thing was likely to work. Something analogous happened in 2000.

Back in our world, Trump never could have pursued such a strategy, but if it was close I could see more court and state hanky panky working for Biden. Trump was totally isolated.
 
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I'm at work and can't address this properly but I can leave you with this.

Records rebut claims of unequal treatment of Jan. 6 rioters

But... did you even read that article? Here's a fairly representative snippet:

"Just this month, a man was sentenced to four years behind bars and ordered to pay what his attorney said is likely to exceed $1.5 million in restitution after pleading guilty to inciting a riot last spring in Champaign, Illinois.

"Shamar Betts, who was 19 at the time, posted a flyer on Facebook on May 31, 2020, that said “RIOT @ MarketPlace Mall” at 3 p.m. and instructed people to bring “friends & family, posters, bricks, bookbags etc.” He participated in the looting, went live on Facebook during the riot and bragged about starting it, authorities said. More than 70 stores were looted, and the riot caused $1.8 million in damage, prosecutors said.

"Betts’ lawyer, Elisabeth Pollock, said Betts was frustrated about police brutality across the U.S., had lost his job because of the coronavirus outbreak and never intended to hurt anyone. Prosecutors pushed for the maximum punishment of five years in prison and the maximum restitution amount for Betts, who had no criminal history, she said.

“They took into account not a single mitigating factor: nothing about how he grew up, nothing about about how the George Floyd protests had affected the community, nothing about how the pandemic had affected Shamar personally and the community. There was absolutely no quarter given to him at all,” his attorney said in an interview.

"In another case this month, an Illinois man was sentenced to nearly nine years behind bars for lighting a Minneapolis cellphone store on fire in June 2020. A Charleston, South Carolina, man who livestreamed himself looting a store downtown was sentenced to two years in prison.

"In the Capitol riot, dozens of defendants have been charged only with misdemeanors, and a standard plea deal has allowed many to plead guilty to a single count of demonstrating in the Capitol.

"An Indiana woman who admitted illegally entering the Capitol but didn’t participate in any violence or destruction avoided jail time, and two other misdemeanor defendants got one and two months of home confinement. Two other people who were locked up pretrial were released after pleading guilty to misdemeanors and serving the maximum six-month jail sentence.

"Only one defendant convicted of a felony has received his punishment so far. Paul Hodgkins, who breached the U.S. Senate chamber carrying a Trump campaign flag, was ordered to serve eight months behind bars."

I mean, the examples examples for BLM are literally a man who organized a riot... as in ADVERTISED and successfully gathered people to riot, and then when that riot that he organized actually happened he participated in the looting, and live streamed it... an arsonist, and someone who (again) livestreamed as he looted someone else's business.

The people they compared them with from Jan 6 are people who entered the capitol and didn't participate in any violence and a man who went into the chamber carrying a Trump flag.

Do you honestly not see these comparisons as strikingly different? I say I want to see something comparable and you give me arson?

And that's not even getting into the whole paragraph on "mitigating factors" for the dude who organized a riot, balanced up against the report about the man entering the chamber including the fact that he was holding a Trump sign as though it's an aggravating factor... which it could only possibly be, from a legal perspective, if you believe that the politics of the rioter is supposed to be relevant in our perception of the crime and the sentencing that it should receive.

Which is exactly the point I was making. You whole article proves exactly the point I was making.

Edit: Still reading. Gawd.

Look at how this article ends:

"On the same day in May, Kelsey Donnel Jackson traveled to downtown Charleston, South Carolina, with a cousin to join a protest over Floyd’s killing. Hours later, as other protesters began flipping tables and taunting police officers, Jackson lighted a shirt on fire and tossed it onto the trunk of a vandalized police car.

"Jackson also vandalized businesses and public property, assaulted two people and streamed a video of himself on Facebook Live in which he held a handgun and made threatening statements about police, according to prosecutors.

"He was sentenced this summer to two years in prison after pleading guilty to maliciously damaging a police vehicle with fire."

"Jackson’s lawyer wrote in court documents before his sentencing that many people who stormed the Capitol “with the clear intent to disrupt a session of Congress and overturn a lawful election” were charged only with misdemeanor offenses.

"“We do not make reference to unrelated conduct in other jurisdictions in order to minimize (Jackson’s) conduct and culpability, but rather to point out that similar (and more egregious) conduct that was very obviously intended to intimidate law enforcement and interfere with government operations has been treated in a less heavy-handed manner elsewhere,” his attorney wrote."

You literally can't be serious. You just can't be.
 
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But... did you even read that article? Here's a fairly representative snippet:

"Just this month, a man was sentenced to four years behind bars and ordered to pay what his attorney said is likely to exceed $1.5 million in restitution after pleading guilty to inciting a riot last spring in Champaign, Illinois.

"Shamar Betts, who was 19 at the time, posted a flyer on Facebook on May 31, 2020, that said “RIOT @ MarketPlace Mall” at 3 p.m. and instructed people to bring “friends & family, posters, bricks, bookbags etc.” He participated in the looting, went live on Facebook during the riot and bragged about starting it, authorities said. More than 70 stores were looted, and the riot caused $1.8 million in damage, prosecutors said.

"Betts’ lawyer, Elisabeth Pollock, said Betts was frustrated about police brutality across the U.S., had lost his job because of the coronavirus outbreak and never intended to hurt anyone. Prosecutors pushed for the maximum punishment of five years in prison and the maximum restitution amount for Betts, who had no criminal history, she said.

“They took into account not a single mitigating factor: nothing about how he grew up, nothing about about how the George Floyd protests had affected the community, nothing about how the pandemic had affected Shamar personally and the community. There was absolutely no quarter given to him at all,” his attorney said in an interview.

"In another case this month, an Illinois man was sentenced to nearly nine years behind bars for lighting a Minneapolis cellphone store on fire in June 2020. A Charleston, South Carolina, man who livestreamed himself looting a store downtown was sentenced to two years in prison.

"In the Capitol riot, dozens of defendants have been charged only with misdemeanors, and a standard plea deal has allowed many to plead guilty to a single count of demonstrating in the Capitol.

"An Indiana woman who admitted illegally entering the Capitol but didn’t participate in any violence or destruction avoided jail time, and two other misdemeanor defendants got one and two months of home confinement. Two other people who were locked up pretrial were released after pleading guilty to misdemeanors and serving the maximum six-month jail sentence.

"Only one defendant convicted of a felony has received his punishment so far. Paul Hodgkins, who breached the U.S. Senate chamber carrying a Trump campaign flag, was ordered to serve eight months behind bars."

I mean, the examples examples for BLM are literally a man who organized a riot... as in ADVERTISED and successfully gathered people to riot, and then when that riot that he organized actually happened he participated in the looting, and live streamed it... an arsonist, and someone who (again) livestreamed as he looted someone else's business.

The people they compared them with from Jan 6 are people who entered the capitol and didn't participate in any violence and a man who went into the chamber carrying a Trump flag.

Do you honestly not see these comparisons as strikingly different? I say I want to see something comparable and you give me arson?

And that's not even getting into the whole paragraph on "mitigating factors" for the dude who organized a riot, balanced up against the report about the man entering the chamber including the fact that he was holding a Trump sign as though it's an aggravating factor... which it could only possibly be, from a legal perspective, if you believe that the politics of the rioter is supposed to be relevant in our perception of the crime and the sentencing that it should receive.

Which is exactly the point I was making. You whole article proves exactly the point I was making.

Edit: Still reading. Gawd.

Look at how this article ends:

"On the same day in May, Kelsey Donnel Jackson traveled to downtown Charleston, South Carolina, with a cousin to join a protest over Floyd’s killing. Hours later, as other protesters began flipping tables and taunting police officers, Jackson lighted a shirt on fire and tossed it onto the trunk of a vandalized police car.

"Jackson also vandalized businesses and public property, assaulted two people and streamed a video of himself on Facebook Live in which he held a handgun and made threatening statements about police, according to prosecutors.

"He was sentenced this summer to two years in prison after pleading guilty to maliciously damaging a police vehicle with fire."

"Jackson’s lawyer wrote in court documents before his sentencing that many people who stormed the Capitol “with the clear intent to disrupt a session of Congress and overturn a lawful election” were charged only with misdemeanor offenses.

"“We do not make reference to unrelated conduct in other jurisdictions in order to minimize (Jackson’s) conduct and culpability, but rather to point out that similar (and more egregious) conduct that was very obviously intended to intimidate law enforcement and interfere with government operations has been treated in a less heavy-handed manner elsewhere,” his attorney wrote."

You literally can't be serious. You just can't be.

I literally am. So much so I'm surprised at your take here.

I shouldn't be trying to engage on this subject from work; I had read the article quickly and knew the tone was bad, and I wasn't trying to present this as a direct comparison. I'm just tired of seeing people treat the January 6th rioters as victims and Ashli Babbitt as a martyr.
 
I literally am. So much so I'm surprised at your take here.

I shouldn't be trying to engage on this subject from work; I had read the article quickly and knew the tone was bad, and I wasn't trying to present this as a direct comparison. I'm just tired of seeing people treat the January 6th rioters as victims and Ashli Babbitt as a martyr.

But that's not me. I don't think they're victims. Just that they aren't insurgent terrorists. They're rioters.

Babbitt's death was tragic in that I don't feel she was likely aiming to harm anyone and I'm sure she didn't understand herself to be a threat worth shooting. But it was a tragedy brought on by herself. The gaurds were determined to hold that line. She didn't take that seriously, breeched it, and was the first through the hole. That got her shot. Sometimes stupid people do stupid things as parts of stupid mobs, and bad things happen.

Truth be told, the cops could have shot several people under the same circumstances on that day and have been perfectly justified. There was chaos running amok and thousands of people storming with who in hell knew what intentions.

But, again, that's a far cry from wishing the cops HAD shot up that crowd. I've seen a lot of people do just that. Even though we know, in hindsight, that they made the best choice in that their tactics ended in the least loss of life imaginable while also bringing an end to the riot in a few short hours. We've seen fiery riots a few dozen people strong that the police weren't able to contain for days. This was thousands of people who were contained without anything burning down in the span of a few hours. And people literally wish they'd been shot.
 
But that's not me. I don't think they're victims. Just that they aren't insurgent terrorists. They're rioters.

Babbitt's death was tragic in that I don't feel she was likely aiming to harm anyone and I'm sure she didn't understand herself to be a threat worth shooting. But it was a tragedy brought on by herself. The gaurds were determined to hold that line. She didn't take that seriously, breeched it, and was the first through the hole. That got her shot. Sometimes stupid people do stupid things as parts of stupid mobs, and bad things happen.

Truth be told, the cops could have shot several people under the same circumstances on that day and have been perfectly justified. There was chaos running amok and thousands of people storming with who in hell knew what intentions.

But, again, that's a far cry from wishing the cops HAD shot up that crowd. I've seen a lot of people do just that. Even though we know, in hindsight, that they made the best choice in that their tactics ended in the least loss of life imaginable while also bringing an end to the riot in a few short hours. We've seen fiery riots a few dozen people strong that the police weren't able to contain for days. This was thousands of people who were contained without anything burning down in the span of a few hours. And people literally wish they'd been shot.

This conversation would have been much easier over a pitcher of beer.
 
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