James Gray on "the struggle of the middle-class filmmaker," or why Marvel is ruining everything

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Make a good movie and people will watch. You can't make a shit movie that has a terrible setting and story and expect the millions to poor in.

It does seem like that's how it would work, doesn't it? Unfortunately the reality is often different.

One of the most interesting films I've ever seen is Primer from 2004. It made a total of $400,000 theatrically.

On the other hand, one of the least interesting films I've ever seen is Avatar and it is the highest grossing film of all time, currently sitting at $2.8 billion in box office receipts.

Lost city of z.. Yea I'm sure that is a great movie.

I think I sense sarcasm.

The Lost City of Z is based on the true story of Percy Fawcett, an explorer who went on an expedition into the Amazon in the 1920s and disappeared, never to be seen again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Fawcett

I posted this trailer earlier, but in case you haven't seen it give it a look. It doesn't look more interesting than a lot of the shit that gets a huge release and makes hundreds of millions of dollars?

 
I wouldn't mind so much if the blockbusters were good, but most of the superhero movies are hot garbage. All the DC movies from The Dark Knight Rises on up have been bad, both Thor films (and from I've seen the third as well) the Iron Man Sequels, and Avengers 2 were lame.

Ant-Man, Civil War, Doctor Strange, Guardians of the Galaxy were average. The new Spider-Man looks weak. Wonder Woman looks like the first Captain America, sans Captain America. I guess I'll see Black Panther? The list goes on. Star Wars is about to be converted into conveyor belt bullshit too.

I enjoyed the Dark Knight trilogy, the Captain America films, the first Iron Man and the first Thor. And if we're going to count them as "superhero movies," I enjoyed the Blade films, although I think of those as separate from the rest of the Marvel stuff.

Other than that, I don't really give a shit.

Everything else are reboots and sequels. Another Planet of the Apes, another Alien, another Blade Runner, another Pirates of the Caribbean. James Cameron is directing fucking 4 sequels to Avatar back to back. Don't get me started on the book adaptations, I'm surprised there isn't another Harry Potter out, and I bet they're already in pre-production.

Eventually there will be new Matrix movies, and Terminator, and Jurassic Park.

As you can tell, my brain has had enough.

Yes, this is a bad time for original properties. And fuck James Cameron for wasting his last remaining years on gay ass Avatar sequels.
 
I'm currently reading the book "Save the Cat" by Blake Snyder who as far as I know is one of Hollywood's highest earning spec writers. He touches on this subject. Essentially it boils down to what are people going to spend their money to watch. The reason so many Superhero movies (and not just superhero, but franchise movies in general) are made is because they know before they even make it, that it will make it's money back and then some, whereas an original film is an unknown.

I've actually heard about that book. Sounds like an interesting read.

It's obvious of course that Hollywood is going to keep making what people want to see. The question then is why is it that the moviegoing public isn't asking for more? Not more of the same, but more variety. It's not that I don't think people should want to go see big spectacles in general--and superhero movies in particular--but why do they want SO MUCH of them? It's almost like that's ALL anyone wants to see these days, or at least all that they want to go to the theater for.

I keep waiting for the bubble to burst but it's been growing for years now.
 
Well the benefit of making a low-budget picture is that even a modest return should yield a decent profit. I mean, if the movie only cost $5 million to make then it doesn't need to make Captain America money to do well. So it should all even out, but that only works when people actually spend their money for a ticket....

Yup when Adam Sandler and then Ben Stiller were knocking out all those low budget comedy hits (and that RomCom dude) they were many of the most profitable movies in Hollywood as they would get made for something like $30MM but could gross a few hundred million when they did well. So often grossing near 10X their costs. the big budget movies almost never gross 10X there costs. Maybe the top few do.
 
Yeah, I mean I do that sometimes too. Though I did specifically make a point to get out and watch Lost City of Z last week.

It wouldn't be as big of a problem if there wasn't so much piracy going on. The problem is not JUST people waiting for the movie to hit video before watching it . . . it's that so many people are waiting and then just stealing it when the opportunity arises.
You are correct I try to see movies at the cinema here in Aus but that is only for films my whole family want to see.
Smaller more niche films i watch at home.
John Wick 2 was released in Feb and isn't released here till this week that is cause for piracy if there ever was one.
 
Get out got some of my money from the theaters. Make a movie that people want to see and people will see it. Disney or not if it buzzes it buzz.
 
Get out got some of my money from the theaters. Make a movie that people want to see and people will see it. Disney or not if it buzzes it buzz.

Plenty of great films have tanked at the box office and plenty of poor ones have done well.

Big Trouble in Little China was a huge bomb. But the Transformers films. . .
 
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Fiscally it's too chancy for "Hollywood" to put faith in smaller pictures. They're not looking at just the cost of the film, but also the cost of marketing and distribution -- which is really what this guy is about, and it's a pretty old story. No creative type likes the idea of selling their picture, of hitting the junket circuit and nowadays currying awareness through social engagement where the line now blurs between audience and actor. It's tough for films to survive let alone make a quick return, and a return large enough to bypass the murky waters that is Hollywood accounting. That's why Bruce Willis has steadily been acting, but he's in like nine films you've never even heard of until running across some generic title on Netflix or Redbox and it's him standing bored with whomever second banana actor who's gotta do all the heavy lifting. Bruno couldn't care less, he's already made his money.

Don't get me wrong. He's right that the money's no longer what it used to be, and, shit, money itself isn't what it used to be either. It doesn't surprise me he's not wealthy as working director. What a director does isn't translatable into dollars.
 
Don't get me wrong. He's right that the money's no longer what it used to be, and, shit, money itself isn't what it used to be either. It doesn't surprise me he's not wealthy as working director. What a director does isn't translatable into dollars.

What do you mean by that? "A Steven Spielberg film" or "a new film from Quentin Tarantino" or "From the director who brought you Seven and The Social Network" means something and can boost profits.

For many people, the director is just as important--if not more important--than the stars when it comes to making a decision on whether or not to see a film.
 
What do you mean by that? "A Steven Spielberg film" or "a new film from Quentin Tarantino" or "From the director who brought you Seven and The Social Network" means something and can boost profits.

For many people, the director is just as important--if not more important--than the stars when it comes to making a decision on whether or not to see a film.
Meaningless, and again, don't get me wrong. I know what good filmmaking looks like; what I'm saying is that it's not translatable to dollars.

I'll say "priceless" if it helps with the swallowing.

I don't know if you know this but comic books are pretty popular. What you might also, or might not know is that many people who read comics don't really look at the art. They get a sense of it in terms of following the story, but they're not really cognizant of style or sophistication of technique.

Likewise with film many audiences are content to watch inferior versions of films, whether by bootlegged copy or on a teeny tiny screen -- instances where directorship is too obscured to be appreciated. People simply do not allow themselves the opportunity to take in the craft.

Any popular director you cite: two things. 1) Calling something a "So and so Film" is not a testament to craft but to familiarity. It's the name, and yes I realize the name is built on good craft but it's the familiarity, because familiarity breeds contempt. Example: BFG was a great movie by a well-known director and it went wood. Due to bad word of mouth and poor marketing. It's all about familiarity. Not what it is, or what it looks like -- and you know that's true because there's been plenty of times you went to see a film by a director you know to be good and the film sucked shit. Your examples are proof of marketing over craft. "Remember these things? This will be like those things. We promise!" I could go on but I said "two things" and I hate when people enumerate and don't follow through. 2) The involvement of the director is a collaborative one, and that's even harder to put a dollar value on. Who's doing the work? How much faith can we put into this guy? No one knows until like a year down the line. It's too chancy. Shyamalan is a great example, it's just a matter of how much more can we watch shit go down in a house. Because once a Night film leaves the house? And the budget goes up? Rut-roh. I guess performance anxiety gets to him. I don't know.

No one can explain why a movie is good or bad. It just is. Success is due to the audience, more than the film itself or by whom it was made and how. And because of that, and inflation, no one wants to gamble on a slow returning film.

Ask anyone on this site why they don't go to the movies and they'll respond with some form of "make good films and I'll go pay to see them." That's a gamble of fifteen dollars they refuse to make. Try throwing in the cost of making, marketing, distributing (don't forget on the home market too), all the administrative duties therein, and then collecting on it and making sure everyone is paid their due. When the gamble is exponentially higher, what makes you think the level of reluctance won't following suit?

He shouldn't be complaining but this is the best level marketing his could muster, I guess. He should be making web-series and figuring out how to monetize himself. All the real filmmaking has gone to cable and streaming video.
 
Blah blah blah cry cry cry I'm a shitty director and nobody likes my movies poor me
 
Blah blah blah cry cry cry I'm a shitty director and nobody likes my movies poor me

He's not a shitty director, though.

Did you ever see We Own the Night with Joaquin Phoenix, Marky Mark and Robert Duvall? If so, that's his. Solid film.

The Lost City of Z is also good.
 
Dramas are dead in the movies.
Also I'm tired of the superhero movies also. I enjoyed Mad Men, Breaking Bad, the Shield and Sopranos more than any movie the last 10 years. TV had the best stuff right now and it's been like this for while.
 
Dramas are dead in the movies.
Also I'm tired of the superhero movies also. I enjoyed Mad Men, Breaking Bad, the Shield and Sopranos more than any movie the last 10 years. TV had the best stuff right now and it's been like this for while.

I think it's hard to compare a TV show and a movie. I mean, most movies are about 2 hours long. Breaking bad is closer to 35 hours long.

It's really two very different experiences.
 
I do not want to sound like too much of a dick, especially because I liked We Own the Night, but if you want to make more money doing low budget movies, make better movies. Those low grossing movies always do better come award season, and studios will pay more for people who win those awards.

Also, the guy has made 7 movies in 20 years. What does he really expect? He needs to work more and get his name out there.
 
The artform is already dead.

And if he's worried admit making money instead of making art, he's not the solution
 
I do not want to sound like too much of a dick, especially because I liked We Own the Night, but if you want to make more money doing low budget movies, make better movies. Those low grossing movies always do better come award season, and studios will pay more for people who win those awards.

Also, the guy has made 7 movies in 20 years. What does he really expect? He needs to work more and get his name out there.

To be fair, not every filmmaker is capable of making Oscar-calibur films. If they were, there would be nothing special about winning the award or getting nominated.

Also, studios have to be willing to actually hire you, or you have to be able to raise funds independently. Look up the term director's jail if you're not familiar with it. Making movies is not as simple as just making the decision to direct one.
 
The artform is already dead.

And if he's worried admit making money instead of making art, he's not the solution

Seems to the real world it is not. Movies are still being made and even good movies. The Invitation and It Follows being recent examples.
 
To be fair, not every filmmaker is capable of making Oscar-calibur films. If they were, there would be nothing special about winning the award or getting nominated.

Also, studios have to be willing to actually hire you, or you have to be able to raise funds independently. Look up the term director's jail if you're not familiar with it. Making movies is not as simple as just making the decision the direct one.
Oh, I know.

But it is not exactly breaking news that a middling director is not doing gangbusters in hollywood. And I still do not see where Marvel comes into this, and it sounds like he only brings that up to get attention.
 
Oh, I know.

But it is not exactly breaking news that a middling director is not doing gangbusters in hollywood. And I still do not see where Marvel comes into this, and it sounds like he only brings that up to get attention.

I think the Marvel thing is just because superhero movies are so dominant right now and Marvel Studios is the biggest offender, so to speak. Look at the list of highest grossing films for 2016 I posted earlier. Of the 10, four were superhero films and four were animated kids' films. Then one was Star Wars. That is not encouraging for any director who works outside of those very specific genres.

Also, I have no idea how much he's ever gotten paid, but We Own the Night had a $26 million dollar. If I'm directing a $26 million movie, I'd think they could give me AT LEAST one of those million for bringing the fucking thing together and making sure there even is a movie.
 
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