James Gray on "the struggle of the middle-class filmmaker," or why Marvel is ruining everything

[Cheese]

just spitting out loud but I think for a drama to sell well at theather it needs something of shock value kinda almost M.Night shit or touch on a subject that might be contorvesty like The Big Short.(good flix) It was a movie about the housing market crashing and did pretty well, 30mil to make and took in 100+mil.

 

[Guestx]

Dramas have never sold well im theathers.

It may be true that straight dramas have never sold well in the theaters, but there used to definitely be a much greater variety to the kinds of films that were big theatrically.

Consider the following highest grossing films (this is domestic gross) and you will notice a distinct sea change. In 1993, there are only two films that I would call "blockbusters" in the sense that we usually use the term: Jurassic Park and Cliffhanger. By 2013, things have changed dramatically. Blockusters and kids' films rule the day.

1993

Jurassic Park
Mrs. Doubtfire
The Fugitive
The Firm
Sleepless in Seattle
Indecent Proposal
In the Line of Fire
The Pelican Brief
Schindler's List
Cliffhanger


2013

Hunger Games: Catching Fire
Iron Man 3
Frozen
Despicable Me 2
Man of Steel
Gravity
Monsters University
The Hobbit 2
Fast & Furious 6
Oz The Great and Powerful

 

[ReAnimator Reagan]

How much did Get Out cost vs what it Made.

I just looked up amd 200+ mill amd only cost 4mil. The small pic just can still make money.

But I always though Horror films were there the forumla for low budget/high gtossing films. Blair Witch, Saw, Jason,etc..

This is why horror was huge back in the 80s especially slashers. Shit, halloween and F13 blew the doors open. Small investment and you were going to make money if it was any good...now, you also have to account for the drive in theater audience back in those glory holious days.

Given the choice of viewing a movie at home or in a theater, I'd rather stay home. I've a decent home system and can watch what I want, when I want and eat, drink and smoke what I want, in peace.

As for the middle ground in movies, it's moved to TV

But there is nothing like cutting a hole in the bottom of a bucket of popcorn and having your younger female cousin jerk ya off, amirite??? You can't do this outside of a movie theater without technically committing incest.

 

[Deleted member 429137]

I wouldn't say it has worked like this for decades. With pirating and high speed internet and those damn commie chinese you can't say it is the same.
It is the 20 million drama that is not around anymore.

Someone brought up an interesting point about if all we get in theaters is the comic book hero garbage, then that starts to look good because it is all there is. Something like that.

A lot of things have changed (CGI-fests, pirating, streaming, super-heroes, nostalgia/remakes/reboots, extended universes, the Chinese market, the rise of premium television replacing indy movies), but it's been a fundamental aspect of Hollywood for decades: most movies fail to make a profit and studios rely on a few movies making all their money.

 

[Guestx]

Indie flicks and the whole "coming of age" stories have been pretty big for the last 15+ years. Napoleon Dynamite, Juno, Boyhood, Perks of being a wallflower, etc. made money on low budgets. Fruitvale Station was made for 900,000 apparently, and grossed 17 million. Even lesser known indie-like flicks like The Way, Way Back earned 23 million on a $5 million budget. Safety Not Guaranteed (750K to make 4.4 million), etc. and these are just box office numbers, not overall gross from dvd and digital sales.

It seems that formula is to take the whole indie/coming of age tale, add some big actors who take massive pay cuts, and profit.

Those are some pretty good examples and it does seem like if you're going to make a drama today that is going to make money, then it needs to be a specific kind of drama.

 

[ReAnimator Reagan]

A lot of things have changed (CGI-fests, pirating, streaming, super-heroes, nostalgia/remakes/reboots, extended universes, the Chinese market, the rise of premium television replacing indy movies), but it's been a fundamental aspect of Hollywood for decades: most movies fail to make a profit and studios rely on a few movies making all their money.

Sorry, I didn't convey this, but the studios only want to do movies they think they for sure will make money on. The 20 million drama might or might not make money but more studios were willing to do it back in the day. Now all they want is a formula that can play globally like super hero shit movies.

 

[Guestx]

How would Primal Fear do at the box office if it was made today? That's why I want to know.

If Primal Fear would fail, that's enough to know the current system is shit.

 

[Cheese]

How would Primal Fear do at the box office if it was made today? That's why I want to know.

If Primal Fear would fail, that's enough to know the current system is shit.

about as good as Spotlight did in at the movies.

Primal Fear 30mil made 100
Spotlight 20mil made 90.

 

[Guestx]

about as good as Spotlight did in at the movies.

Primal Fear 30mil made 100
Spotlight 20mil made 90.

That's a good comparison.

 

[Organic Damage]

I agree that streaming will definitely change this status quo. In the same way people still pay for concerts, or pay to stream music, but almost nobody buys CDs, I think movies will increasingly become events that you pay more to experience or lease on the cheap from your couch.

The other thing is, why did that guy use the Marvel movies in a pejorative sense? I doubt it's superhero films that are the "problem" so much as big-budget effects driven spectacles with franchise potential built in.

I mean the Transformers movies are objectively bad films. The Marvel ones might be paint-by-numbers but I don't know if you can say they're just bad. The formula will work until it doesn't, and then we'll have something like Waterworld or Cutthroat Island and lean & mean movies will start looking real good again.

 

[HwoarangStyle]

im just gonna go ahead and say we own the night is a kick ass fucking movie!

 

[BisexualMMA]

It may be true that straight dramas have never sold well in the theaters, but there used to definitely be a much greater variety to the kinds of films that were big theatrically.

Consider the following highest grossing films (this is domestic gross) and you will notice a distinct sea change. In 1993, there are only two films that I would call "blockbusters" in the sense that we usually use the term: Jurassic Park and Cliffhanger. By 2013, things have changed dramatically. Blockusters and kids' films rule the day.

1993

Jurassic Park
Mrs. Doubtfire
The Fugitive
The Firm
Sleepless in Seattle
Indecent Proposal
In the Line of Fire
The Pelican Brief
Schindler's List
Cliffhanger


2013

Hunger Games: Catching Fire
Iron Man 3
Frozen
Despicable Me 2
Man of Steel
Gravity
Monsters University
The Hobbit 2
Fast & Furious 6
Oz The Great and Powerful

The Fugitive wasn't a blockbuster? They advertised the shit out of that bus / train collision.

 

[Guestx]

The Fugitive wasn't a blockbuster? They advertised the shit out of that bus / train collision.

It was a big movie and it had action but I dunno . . . I don't think of it in the way that I think of something like Captain America or Inception or The Rock.

 

[Guestx]

I agree that streaming will definitely change this status quo. In the same way people still pay for concerts, or pay to stream music, but almost nobody buys CDs, I think movies will increasingly become events that you pay more to experience or lease on the cheap from your couch.

The other thing is, why did that guy use the Marvel movies in a pejorative sense? I doubt it's superhero films that are the "problem" so much as big-budget effects driven spectacles with franchise potential built in.

I think he's lashing out at Marvel movies because if you are going to pin the problem on just one entity, it's got to be them. They're the poster child right now. But of course you're right that it's not JUST them we should be looking at.

The thing is, I don't even hate Marvel movies in general or big budget blockbusters in general--a lot of my favorite movies are spectacle films--but it feels like these days that's just ALL we're getting. Well, that and a smattering of comedies and horror movies. There just doesn't seem to be much in the way of variety out there.

The formula will work until it doesn't, and then we'll have something like Waterworld or Cutthroat Island and lean & mean movies will start looking real good again.

I've wondered about this. If enough big-budget films go belly up then will we start to see a shift in what Hollywood is offering us?

 

[Guestx]

im just gonna go ahead and say we own the night is a kick ass fucking movie!

Been a while since I saw it but I remember thinking it was solid.

However, while it did okay, it wasn't a big box office hit.

 

[Urban Youth]

I wouldn't mind so much if the blockbusters were good, but most of the superhero movies are hot garbage. All the DC movies from The Dark Knight Rises on up have been bad, both Thor films (and from I've seen the third as well) the Iron Man Sequels, and Avengers 2 were lame.

Ant-Man, Civil War, Doctor Strange, Guardians of the Galaxy were average. The new Spider-Man looks weak. Wonder Woman looks like the first Captain America, sans Captain America. I guess I'll see Black Panther? The list goes on. Star Wars is about to be converted into conveyor belt bullshit too.

Everything else are reboots and sequels. Another Planet of the Apes, another Alien, another Blade Runner, another Pirates of the Caribbean. James Cameron is directing fucking 4 sequels to Avatar back to back. Don't get me started on the book adaptations, I'm surprised there isn't another Harry Potter out, and I bet they're already in pre-production.

Eventually there will be new Matrix movies, and Terminator, and Jurassic Park.

As you can tell, my brain has had enough.

EDIT
lol the gif was too much.

 

[Turtlejuice]

I'm currently reading the book "Save the Cat" by Blake Snyder who as far as I know is one of Hollywood's highest earning spec writers. He touches on this subject. Essentially it boils down to what are people going to spend their money to watch. The reason so many Superhero movies (and not just superhero, but franchise movies in general) are made is because they know before they even make it, that it will make it's money back and then some, whereas an original film is an unknown.

 

[Thunderflash500]

Make a good movie and people will watch. You can't make a shit movie that has a terrible setting and story and expect the millions to poor in. Lost city of z.. Yea I'm sure that is a great movie.

 

[Mike]

Meh there have always been big budget movies, although I do agree there is more of a focus on blockbusters now. Tbh I wouldn't go to see a drama in the theater. I don't see the point. The big screen is for movies with an element of spectacle. So yes, marvel movies and other action blockbusters. For the most part I'll watch comedies and dramas on netflix.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

I just found this article yesterday and I thought it was pretty interesting:

http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/lost-city-of-z-and-the-decline-of-middle-class-films.html

Most of you probably don't recognize the name James Gray, but he's the director of the recent film The Lost City of Z and he also has directed some fairly high-profile films in the past, such as The Yards with Mark Wahlberg and We Own the Night and Two Lovers with Joaquin Phoenix.

Those are all at least somewhat well-known movies with big name actors. So considering that, this excerpt from the article surprised me:



That makes me wonder just how much money he's making per picture. Considering the talent involved, you would think each movie would be a good payday for him.

But more to the point, is the people's penchant for big summer blockbusters destroying the viability of filmmakers working on smaller pictures? Have we reached a point--or perhaps I should say, has the public pushed the movie industry to the point--to where if you're not making a $100+ million CGI shitfest then you can just forget about your movie actually making any money?

I dunno, plenty of people out there with houses that have never made what I'm sure he's made.


Thing is, you have to be smart with your money. I see shit like this and I feel like this guy just can't manage his finances. Maybe I'm wrong tho and he only makes like 30-40 grand a movie.