I've been using Kettlebell For Grapplers program for 6 weeks, my review

[Chungungo]

Hill sprints are my main leg strength exercise. Mostly because I have a bad back that squatting tends to exacerbate (though I love to squat, sucks I can't do a lot of it anymore), but the sprints have the nice side benefit of making weight just fall off. You're certainly not going to build the same strength as with a good squatting routine, but again it's more of a power endurance exercise.

Well I left the place where I used to do Olympic Lifting because damn crossfiters took too much space, you know fashion is fashion abd my Muay Thai coach settled down here so I could do Judo, Muay Thai and weights and had to choose. Anyway I use sprints in a football field because I do not need equipment, is free and while I am not getting as strong as with front deep squat you get enough power and endurance, plus I noted the fatigue is very similar to a Judo match , this is where I noted that unless you are over 100 kilos and are fighting one of those super fats like sumo judocas you

 

[immanurse]

http://www.8weeksout.com/2008/10/17/secrets-of-muscular-endurance/

 

[JusticeMonkey]

Those primal bells from Onnit look cool, but arent worth the money

 

[selfcritical]

Imo kb in general are conditioning tools, you get strong using the barbell on a progressive program. Kb will make you stronger, but near as much maximal strength. If power output over time is your goal, I could see the argument for kb, though I prefer bb and think of kb as finishers or metcon.

That, and adding raw strength with Kettlebells HURTS. The best way to add strength using them is heavy doubles with pauses, and putting on that volume on is grueling in a way that doing barbell work with adequate rest simply isn't. I only do it for sport-specific reasons. If you don't have to hold the motherfuckers for 10 minutes, I don't see any reason you'd use the implement in that way.

 

[Osstopher McGi]

I bought Pavel's "Enter the Kettlebell" book last year and was doing turkish getups, clean and press, and single-handed swings with a 20kg kettlebell. At the time I was also doing minute drills every other day, and rolling 3 times a week. I can't definitively say whether it was the kb's or a combination or what, but I pretty much never gassed on the mat which in my (limited) experience as a pessadissimo is a difficult fitness level to achieve.

I've been doing power lifts lately and no minute drills and I gas all the time. Pretty much a no-brainer for me, really.

 

[Codger]

I don't have doubts that KBs are an effective conditioning tool. You only have to do a routine for 10mins to know it's a similar feeling to a heavy roll.

I hate the way pretty much every time someone asks about them, people robotically say "just get a barbell and do Starting Strength" as if they are remotely the same thing.

 

[anaconda]

He's one of only 12 people to TTB officially, and probably the smallest. That's a 108 lb kettlebell, I'm amazed anyone at his BW can do all 3 of those lifts.

If you see him, ask him if he got that strong just doing KBs or if he did a bunch of powerlifting or something else beforehand. How the hell did he prepare for that?

Here is his site detailing his prep for taming the beast: http://mikedavisdpt.typepad.com/michael_davis_dpt/2010/07/how-mike-davis-dpt-tamed-the-beast.html

He also told me that, as you said, there's not really a linear method and there's no need to do barbell first and for grappling, it could make sense to just start with kb.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't have doubts that KBs are an effective conditioning tool. You only have to do a routine for 10mins to know it's a similar feeling to a heavy roll.

I hate the way pretty much every time someone asks about them, people robotically say "just get a barbell and do Starting Strength" as if they are remotely the same thing.

It's because people equate 'getting stronger' with 'higher 1 rep max'. That's certainly a form of strength, but it's not the only or even necessarily the best form for grapplers. But if you ask a bunch of powerlifters or body builders (typical F13 crowd), of course they're going to say to powerlift.

For an interesting take on using KBs to prepare a fighter for a UFC fight:

Preparing an MMA Fighter

 

[Uchi Mata]

Here is his site detailing his prep for taming the beast: http://mikedavisdpt.typepad.com/michael_davis_dpt/2010/07/how-mike-davis-dpt-tamed-the-beast.html

He also told me that, as you said, there's not really a linear method and there's no need to do barbell first and for grappling, it could make sense to just start with kb.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out when I get home and am not firewalled from blogs.

 

[Chungungo]

It's because people equate 'getting stronger' with 'higher 1 rep max'. That's certainly a form of strength, but it's not the only or even necessarily the best form for grapplers. But if you ask a bunch of powerlifters or body builders (typical F13 crowd), of course they're going to say to powerlift.

For an interesting take on using KBs to prepare a fighter for a UFC fight:

Preparing an MMA Fighter

Interesting there were not kettlebells snatches in the program...

 

[Uchi Mata]

Interesting there were not kettlebells snatches in the program...

I think the intent was to keep it really simple and not spend a ton of time focusing on KB technique. Snatches are pretty hard to do correctly with heavier weights.

Incidentally, for Judo I think KB snatches are almost the best thing you can possibly do. The high pull needed for a correct snatch is the closest non-Judo analog I've found for the sleeve pull needed for forward throws.

 

[Kbits]

Mat fitness is fairly specific...and if you're not doing a lot of randori / sparring, I can see the argument for kettlebells. If you are doing rounds, I'd hazard a guess that typical kettlebell work outs (hi rep stuff like 10 minute SSST) is going to significantly cut into your recovery - and therefore, next day mat performance.

Taking that off the table, there are two other prime advantages of KBs:
1) power development (where power = force x velocity)
2) convenience.

Certainly, power can be increased via KBs (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22344061

Obviously, the power output increase is not as high as with weightlifting but that's the price you pay for the convenience of a kbell. Again, one could argue that this could be enhanced by using, say, bands. OTOH, the high rep nature of most kbell routines makes them prime candidates for causing DOMS...which impedes next day grappling.

It could very well be that a low rep routine of swings (say, 7 sets x 5 reps) with bands might do something comparable to 30% 1RM jump squat training (a known way to significantly increase vertical jump height and 40 yard dash - IOW lower limb power).

Clinically (I'm a PT and a EP), I like Kbells because (a) they're convenient (b) non threatening (c) provide good variety (d) allow novel movements. (e) convenience leads to compliance (f) strength training. These are not trivial benefits at all; I like them a lot.

However, if I was looking to improve someone's power output (say, mine) for grappling, I'd go for plyometrics or speed lifts. If I wanted to improve V02 max, I'd use an ergocycle. And strength - barbells (or some variation of bodyweight / band training).

Kbells occupy a strange mid-point. I like them...but....I don't think they quite hit the spot for grapplers (In fairness, that's a pretty big bucket, so YMMV). OTOH...the convenience of them might just make them 'good enough'.

PS: 48kg kbell is pretty damn impressive!

 

[Kbits]

Dang it...I've talked myself back around to kettlebells. I guess it's all in the manipulation of acute and chronic program parameters...but I've never seen a non strength-endurance kbell routine. Is there one that's popular?

 

[selfcritical]

I think the intent was to keep it really simple and not spend a ton of time focusing on KB technique. Snatches are pretty hard to do correctly with heavier weights.

Incidentally, for Judo I think KB snatches are almost the best thing you can possibly do. The high pull needed for a correct snatch is the closest non-Judo analog I've found for the sleeve pull needed for forward throws.

If you learn to to do the high swing correctly, that might be ideal, with the pendulum and backswing and heavy-ass weight. Ideally there should be no difference between your swing and your snatch except for insertion and lockout. The grab and release is crazy good for grip endurance though.

Incidentally, this mornings sport prep workout was 20 mins 16kg, only one hand switch ( I switched at about 11 mins). I can't wait for the transfer of training effect to masturbation.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Dang it...I've talked myself back around to kettlebells. I guess it's all in the manipulation of acute and chronic program parameters...but I've never seen a non strength-endurance kbell routine. Is there one that's popular?

What are you looking for exactly?

KB programming tends to be about getting volume way up on your current weight before going to the next one, since KBs increase in weight in big jumps. The popular Rite of Passage program is designed to get you to a single arm press of half your BW, but does so by laddering up to 75 reps in a workout on clean and press with your current weight before jumping to the next. So is it a strength or endurance program? Hard to say. In terms of low rep stuff, Turkish getups are typically done for low reps with heavy weights, but they're an odd exercise since they're much more about isometrics and stability (as well as balance) than they are maximal pressing or pulling strength.

I think the closest you'd get would be something like Simple & Sinister, which emphasizes heavy swings in 10 rep units with either TGUs or lower rep clean and jerks. But in general I haven't seen many routines in the 'pure strength' zone of 3-5 reps. That's just not what you use KBs for.

 

[JosephDredd]

Dang it...I've talked myself back around to kettlebells. I guess it's all in the manipulation of acute and chronic program parameters...but I've never seen a non strength-endurance kbell routine. Is there one that's popular?

Enter the Kettlebell, I guess, is great for strength, but it's high-volume, which is used to make the jump from one kettlebell to the next (because the jump in weight is so large).

Mike Mahler has a ton of strength-oriented, low rep programs on his website.

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you learn to to do the high swing correctly, that might be ideal, with the pendulum and backswing and heavy-ass weight. Ideally there should be no difference between your swing and your snatch except for insertion and lockout. The grab and release is crazy good for grip endurance though.

Incidentally, this mornings sport prep workout was 20 mins 16kg, only one hand switch ( I switched at about 11 mins). I can't wait for the transfer of training effect to masturbation.

Firstly, the high swing (if you're talking about swinging all the way above the head) is a silly cross fit exercise that I've never seen any RKC or SF guy advocate (on the contrary, they all seem to think it's useless). Secondly, there is absolutely a difference between your swing and your snatch. The motions start the same but the snatch features a high pull and lockout and the KB follows a much tighter arc on the upswing than with a normal swing. The best video I've seen showing how to do it correctly:

 

[selfcritical]

Mat fitness is fairly specific...and if you're not doing a lot of randori / sparring, I can see the argument for kettlebells. If you are doing rounds, I'd hazard a guess that typical kettlebell work outs (hi rep stuff like 10 minute SSST) is going to significantly cut into your recovery - and therefore, next day mat performance.

Taking that off the table, there are two other prime advantages of KBs:
1) power development (where power = force x velocity)
2) convenience.

Certainly, power can be increased via KBs (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22344061

Obviously, the power output increase is not as high as with weightlifting but that's the price you pay for the convenience of a kbell. Again, one could argue that this could be enhanced by using, say, bands. OTOH, the high rep nature of most kbell routines makes them prime candidates for causing DOMS...which impedes next day grappling.

It could very well be that a low rep routine of swings (say, 7 sets x 5 reps) with bands might do something comparable to 30% 1RM jump squat training (a known way to significantly increase vertical jump height and 40 yard dash - IOW lower limb power).

Clinically (I'm a PT and a EP), I like Kbells because (a) they're convenient (b) non threatening (c) provide good variety (d) allow novel movements. (e) convenience leads to compliance (f) strength training. These are not trivial benefits at all; I like them a lot.

However, if I was looking to improve someone's power output (say, mine) for grappling, I'd go for plyometrics or speed lifts. If I wanted to improve V02 max, I'd use an ergocycle. And strength - barbells (or some variation of bodyweight / band training).

Kbells occupy a strange mid-point. I like them...but....I don't think they quite hit the spot for grapplers (In fairness, that's a pretty big bucket, so YMMV). OTOH...the convenience of them might just make them 'good enough'.

PS: 48kg kbell is pretty damn impressive!

I'm trying to figure out why the hell the weightlifters didn't improve much at the power clean. That's weird.

 

[selfcritical]

Firstly, the high swing (if you're talking about swinging all the way above the head) is a silly cross fit exercise that I've never seen any RKC or SF guy advocate (on the contrary, they all seem to think it's useless). Secondly, there is absolutely a difference between your swing and your snatch. The motions start the same but the snatch features a high pull and lockout and the KB follows a much tighter arc on the upswing than with a normal swing. The best video I've seen showing how to do it correctly:

Nope. I mean swinging to where the bell path is mostly vertical and then releasing momentarily before regripping. It's literally the snatch minus insertion and lockout. I can't think of much in the way of videos teaching it by itself, because it's usually in demonstrations of the GS snatch.

So basically high swing would be backswing>front scoop> extension> Acceleration pull> drop into backswing.

I'm going to make a shitty video at my desk at work, let me know if you can hear me.

 

[selfcritical]

https://youtu.be/72b3C-v6s7c
https://youtu.be/Lmt-PNk9S0M
Let me know if these make any sense, if not I'll try to get someone to shoot me at the gym at work.