Is Whittaker the third greatest MW of all time?

[mkt]

Rockhold was a hell of a fighter. Like Weidman, he may have never been the same after getting caught with a mistake, against Bisping. Both super talented fighters.

I've always said Rockhold was kind of Poor Man's Jon Jones...and I don't mean that as an insult. Both he and Jones had pretty weak boxing, but compensated for it with length/reach, footwork, athleticism and a strong kicking game. Both were utterly nasty from the top position on the ground with GnP (elbows mostly for Jones) and submissions. Jones main advantages were better TDs and a better chin. If Luke had Jones' TDs (or even just Chael's double-legs) and a better chin and Fight IQ when he got hurt, he'd have been an absolute monster who held the MW belt a long time. But he was still very good. I remember him casually submitted Bisping with a one-armed guillotine in their first fight after beating him up in striking exchanges.

 

[JustOnce]

I've always said Belfort and Hendo are legends. You can't call either a GOAT because they never had long enough win streaks and both jumped around between MW, LHW and occasionally HW. They both had long careers, though and many great wins with a decent number of losses, mostly to very good fighters. I'd give Hendo the edge career-wise, as he had even better longevity and didn't have the PED baggage (just legal TRT which Belfort also took).

That whole 'legal' trt is fishy as hell though. They are definitely legends, but not big of known cheaters like Trtor. Hendo, it's a bit in a grey area, and I will give him a benefit of a doubt, but that TRT thing is pretty shady. They ended up getting it banned for people who actually need it like Bigfoot.

And yes, Hendo I do think overall combined may have had a better career overall, but at MW, I think he's not top 3.

 

[JustOnce]

I've always said Rockhold was kind of Poor Man's Jon Jones...and I don't mean that as an insult. Both he and Jones had pretty weak boxing, but compensated for it with length/reach, footwork, athleticism and a strong kicking game. Both were utterly nasty from the top position on the ground with GnP (elbows mostly for Jones) and submissions. Jones main advantages were better TDs and a better chin. If Luke had Jones' TDs (or even just Chael's double-legs) and a better chin and Fight IQ when he got hurt, he'd have been an absolute monster who held the MW belt a long time. But he was still very good.

Rockhold was amazing but he was not Jones amazing, and I think Jones was better and smarter and tougher too.

But really, if Rockhold wasn't clowning around and didn't get ktfo by Bisping, it may have been a different story for Rockhold too, though he's not on Jones level.

Not everyone can come back from a defeat like that, and Rockhold doesn't necessarily seem like the most mentally strong guy out there.

 

[wwedanawhite]

Also, if Rumble made 185, would anyone in their right mind pick Rob over Rumble? No one would.

But this thread wasn't to compare the two, before it gets sidetracked.

I would, and I’d honestly be pretty confident in it. Rumble is amazing, but he shines at LHW because his power translates and he’s quicker then others in LHW. The LHW division was also packed with gunslingers which Rumble shined against. Robs not going to be silly enough to try trade hooks with Rumble, he’d happily stick that jab out

 

[mkt]

That whole 'legal' trt is fishy as hell though. They are definitely legends, but not big of known cheaters like Trtor. Hendo, it's a bit in a grey area, and I will give him a benefit of a doubt, but that TRT thing is pretty shady. They ended up getting it banned for people who actually need it like Bigfoot.

And yes, Hendo I do think overall combined may have had a better career overall, but at MW, I think he's not top 3.

What's wild is that Belfort was destroying everyone all the way back in 1997 until he met Couture. And Hendo beat Alan Goes and Carlos Newton in the same night in 1998 to win a UFC tournament...the only UFC "belt" Hendo ever one. That was back when everyone still feared BJJ black belts. Neither one of those guys could submit Hendo but Frank Shamrock did in a grappling tournament in like 20 seconds. Those were the days! Anyway, Belfort and Hendo both go waaay back.

 

[JustOnce]

I would, and I’d honestly be pretty confident in it. Rumble is amazing, but he shines at LHW because his power translates and he’s quicker then others in LHW. The LHW division was also packed with gunslingers which Rumble shined against. Robs not going to be silly enough to try trade hooks with Rumble, he’d happily stick that jab out

If so, Rob would confidently get knocked out. Good luck using his in and out jab against someone like Rumble with 5 niches reach disadvantage.

 

[mkt]

If so, Rob would confidently get knocked out. Good luck using his in and out jab against someone like Rumble with 5 niches reach disadvantage.

Yeah, Rumble with a good weight cut likely destroys Whittaker. But I agree with you...he was a total wild card unless he fought at 205 or heavier.

 

[JustOnce]

What's wild is that Belfort was destroying everyone all the way back in 1997 until he met Couture. And Hendo beat Alan Goes and Carlos Newton in the same night in 1998 to win a UFC tournament...the only UFC "belt" Hendo ever one. That was back when everyone still feared BJJ black belts. Neither one of those guys could submit Hendo but Frank Shamrock did in a grappling tournament in like 20 seconds. Those were the days! Anyway, Belfort and Hendo both went waaay back.

Vitor may have been the first MMA phenom. But the whole roid thing is just off putting really. I think for a long time BJJ black belt meant a lot. But nowadays it feels like everyone and their mother seem to have one lol.

And gotta say Shamrock was an absolute beast back in the day too.

 

[JustOnce]

Yeah, Rumble with a good weight cut likely destroys Whittaker. But I agree with you...he was a total wild card unless he fought at 205 or heavier.

Yeah I think he just couldn't carry his weight healthy and he found his zone at 205. Man, sad that he's not with us anymore. Rip Rumble mate

 

[mkt]

Vitor may have been the first MMA phenom. But the whole roid thing is just off putting really. I think for a long time BJJ black belt meant a lot. But nowadays it feels like everyone and their mother seem to have one lol.

And gotta say Shamrock was an absolute beast back in the day too.

One thing that helped Vitor was that he was supposedly a Gracie black belt, so many were afraid of his ground game and chose to stand with him. Even Randy invented dirty boxing (brilliant gameplan) where he clinched and held him against the cage but avoided the ground for the most part. After he got TKO'd by Vitor, Tank said he should've gone for a TD earlier (he tried late in the fight but was too dazed). The Gracies were great marketers, so I don't know how good Vitor really was on the ground in the 90s. Sakuraba didn't submit him so there's at least that. But given how fast his hands were, most guys would've been better off trying to get him down and test his ground game.

 

[wwedanawhite]

If so, Rob would confidently get knocked out. Good luck using his in and out jab against someone like Rumble with 5 niches reach disadvantage.

Reach is only one factor in this game. Edgar had one of the best jabs in the game and he isn’t lengthy. Max and Volk both have elite jabs and neither are lengthy. Robs used his jab at the highest level and it worked against everyone except Izzy, but Izzy is a completely different fighter to rumble. I don’t think either is a landslide favourite, but Robs durable as hell, has a far better gas tank and tends to get better the longer the fight goes. Sure Rumble can get him, but I think we’re using evidence of him doing this to slower LHWs and asserting it to LHW. I see it as similar to Pettis vs pitbull, you’d think pitbull would murk him considering what he did at 45 and even at 55.. I just don’t think it’s ever that simple

 

[BigGing]

Everyone says Anderson's Era of MW was the worst...but does anyone really hinkle today's is all that special?

 

[dipstickjimmy]

I love me some Chris. But I think longevity on Rob tips the scale in his favour.

GSP literally just got a freebie shot against Bisping of all people.

I guess it depends on the question. Greatest Champion or Greatest MW. Rob is 14-2 at MW while The Chris is 15-5 (with one LHW bout in there). Really 15-4 with the fluke Leg Break take out of the equation. But I would say Chris' best 5 wins over Anderson, Maia, Munoz, Lyoto & Vitor might be better then Roberts' wins over Yoel, Cannonier, Gastelum, Vettori and Jacare.

 

[JustOnce]

One thing that helped Vitor was that he was supposedly a Gracie black belt, so many were afraid of his ground game and chose to stand with him. Even Randy invented dirty boxing (brilliant gameplan) where he clinched and held him against the cage but avoided the ground for the most part. After he got TKO'd by Vitor, Tank said he should've gone for a TD earlier (he tried late in the fight but was too dazed). The Gracies were great marketers, so I don't know how good Vitor really was on the ground in the 90s. Sakuraba didn't submit him so there's at least that. But given how fast his hands were, most guys would've been better off trying to get him down and test his ground game.

Vitor's BJJ black belt always looked like as legit as Wanderelei's, but gotta say that he did come close with that armbar on Jones. I think if you could, it's always best to put that guy on the back, but it's probably not necessarily an easy task, with him being strong and fast and dangerous, especially when Vitor was a TRTor. I think that was the best version of Vitor.

 

[Fact Checker]

I guess it depends on the question. Greatest Champion or Greatest MW. Rob is 14-2 at MW while The Chris is 15-5 (with one LHW bout in there). Really 15-4 with the fluke Leg Break take out of the equation. But I would say Chris' best 5 wins over Anderson, Maia, Munoz, Lyoto & Vitor might be better then Roberts' wins over Yoel, Cannonier, Gastelum, Vettori and Jacare.

The Chris was a dominant champ. Even past his prime he finished a prime version of Gastelum whereas Rob boringly decisioned him.

Anderson

Izzy

The Chris


(I also think the Chris in his prime beats all 3: Anderson, Izzy, and Rob)

 

[JohnCena27]

I would say Giuliana Cabrazia is nice.

And you would be 100% right

 

[zorg1000]

I'm glad Rich is getting some love in this thread. He deserves it.

He absolutely does, he’s in a similar situation as Whitaker where if it weren’t for Anderson showing up than he could have been a long time champ.

I don’t think he would have been as dominant as Anderson but I like Franklin’s chances against most of the people Silva fought at MW.

Franklin did beat Lutter & Okami and I think he wins against Leben, Marquardt, Cote, Leites, Maia & Sonnen.

Henderson did beat him by SD in a 3 round fight at 205 but a 5 rounder at 185 could have ended differently. This fight would be a toss up. Perhaps this would have been a competitive trilogy had Anderson not came to the UFC.

We saw what Belfort did to Franklin so assuming he got past Henderson, this is where Franklin likely loses his title.

 

[BJJ4Tone]

Haven't heard of her before.

Thank @JohnCena27 for having her in the av.
Her Twitter >>>>>>>>> her IG.

 

[Koro_11]

We had a pretty good discussion regarding the third greatest of all time at LHW division, whom I posited that it may be Rumble, though obviously he didn't have the longevity of many other candidates, nor the tenacity of some, rip Rumble bro

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/is-rumble-the-third-greatest-lhw-of-all-time.4290802/

The MW on other hand might be the toughest division to agree on the third greatest fighter of all time. Frankly, during Android Silva's reign, I couldn't have been counted as one of his loyal fans drinking Zuffa Koolaids, even long before he popped for roids twice and blamed it on dick pills.

But, after everything said and done, it's hard to argue that as things stand now, he's likely the greatest MW of all time. Because at the end of the day, winning in sports, that's what counts, and he did it as well as anybody during his run. It's also hard to argue against Izzy being the next in line, two lanky one-dimensional strikers who has excelled and dominated their peers in the middleweight class. Never been a fan of either at any point in my life, but gotta give credit to where it's due.

During Anderson's run, the MW division was clearly the weakest division out there, even weaker the HW division with Tim Sylvia as a champ. Then after Anderson's run was ended by Weidman in a dramatic fashion, the MW division arguably had its golden era of fighters: Weidman, Rockhold, Romero, Jacare, Mousasi, TRTor, Machida, Kennedy, Hendo, Brunson and etc, which may have ended with Rockhold clowning around then getting ktfo by Bisping of all people, which set up a freebie title shot for GSP who probably had zero intention to defend whatsoever.

I'm more than confident prime Anderon's run at the top would have ended long ago if he had to fight against that MW lineup, with him only having fought Hendo and TRTor and a complete robbery against Brunson. Izzy's career likely would have been way different as well if he were to have come up against such competition instead, having only fought Brunson with the worst chin from that list and Romero who I don't know if he knew what he was doing in that Izzy fight, kinda like Nemkov fight last night.

But no one can fault anyone having been in the right place and the right time. It's all about what you were able to do with what you were given, and Anderson and Izzy for top 2 spots seem much difficult, if not nearly impossible, to argue against. It's the position for the third spot that is a rather difficult one and the list could be long.

Hendo
Vitor
Mousasi
Weidman
Rockhold
Franklin
Whittaker
Lindland
Bustamante
Jacare
Romero
And etc

Whittaker is 12-2 at middleweight, with only losses to Izzy. He has wins over Vettori, Kelvin, Jared, Till, Romero, Jacare, Brunson and Hall. I thought he robbed Romero in the rematch and it was a close fight with Till likely wrestling helping him edge it out, not to mention the second fight against Izzy was a pretty close one. A great guy, super well rounded fighter, with great accomplishments in the division, and likely setting him up for a trilogy fight against Izzy if he pulls it off against Du Plessis.

Is Whittaker the third greatest MW of all time?

Whittaker lost that second Romero fight and has not finished an opponent IN SIX YEARS. He’s a good fighter but one needs to do more than just win point karate contests vs non champs to be considered in that elite league imo.

 

[JohnCena27]

Thank @JohnCena27 for having her in the av.
Her Twitter >>>>>>>>> her IG.

Her twitter is better coz nobody cares about censoring her stuff there, ig is cool but sometimes you do want to see more yk