is this an act of war?

[Cubo de Sangre]

i think its a corporation's responsibility to keep its information safe, within reason. once the "reasonable" threshold has been met, its the Federal Government's responsibility to safeguard its citizens (and like i said earlier, economic war in the guise of cyberattacks, is still very much a kind of war...and has led to armed conflict in the past).

I don't know what a reasonable threshold is and I don't see how the citizens are under threat such that we need safeguarded.

 

[IGIT]

I don't know what a reasonable threshold is and I don't see how the citizens are under threat such that we need safeguarded.

hi Cubo,

well, its like this. if i leave my doors open at night and all the lights on and i get robbed...its kinda on me.

if i lock my doors at night and have an alarm system built in, then i've taken reasonable measures to protect myself.

you know, reasonable.

if i'm a businessman and the Peoples Liberation Army, aided and abetted by Central Military Commission of China is undermining my corporation's ability to survive due to cyber espionage....yeah, i'd expect the Federal Government to lend a hand.

wouldn't you?

- IGIT

 

[mma2013]

hello again Mr. MMA,

China owning us Treasury bonds doesn't give them any power over US foreign policy, or US economy - not at all.

China dumping the bonds wouldn't change short term interest rates, because those are set by the Fed. if China tried to manipulate long term maturities, *presto*, the Fed would institute more quantitative easing (and the Fed has shown in recent years that it won't hesitate to implement these measures) - so that's not really an issue.

as to who else would buy US debt? the answer is everybody. Japan owns a ton of it, as do the Saudis, as does Europe.

also, nobody (at least not me) said anything about crippling China's economy. the OP was more about China crippling US economy.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-china-cyberspying-justice-20140520-story.html#page=1

- IGIT

hi MMA,

there are other ways of conducting war that don't include the launching of nuclear missiles.

you could cripple a country, economically, to the point where they are "defeated". the Japanese declared war on the United States, you'll remember, not because of any military act, but because we were starving them for oil...oil they needed.

also, the United States government doesn't care, as far as i can tell, about bleats of "hey, thats a double standard!". neither does China...neither does Russia, neither does any first world power.

- IGIT

you're missing the point here my friend. my response is in reference to your above post highlighted in yellow.

your statement is can the u.s. engage in a war to "cripple" a "first world power" country economically.

the answer is no. it cannot because it would cripple the u.s. economy at the same time.

let's take your issues one at a time.

no one said any foreign country has "any power" over u.s. foreign policy or the u.s. economy. i'm not sure how you came to this conclusion because no one made this statement.

next, whether china decides to hold u.s. treasury bonds to maturity and the impact on interest rates is irrelevant. the u.s. can't "cripple" a foreign country economically by artificially keeping the fed funds rate at 0.25%. so again, i'm not sure what is the purpose of your point regarding bond maturities and bond yields.

third, as to who would buy u.s. treasury bonds, the purpose of this point in my previous post is to show why the u.s. would not engage in a war to "cripple" a foreign country economically.

if the u.s. intended to engage in a war to "cripple" a foreign country economically, there would be no reason for the u.s. to sell treasury bonds to a foreign country or allow any u.s. companies to do business with a foreign nation.

the u.s. would completely isolate the foreign country if the u.s. intended to engage in a war to "cripple" a foreign nation economically.

finally, your reference to the l.a. times article is irrelevant. so again, i'm not sure what is the point because the u.s. would not engage in war to "cripple" a foreign country economically because it would hurt the u.s. economy simultaneously.

it seems like you and i are discussing two different topics with different points of view. so, i'll gracefully bow out and let you continue your discussions with other posters.

 

[IGIT]

you're missing the point here my friend. my response is in reference to your above post highlighted in yellow.

your statement is can the u.s. engage in a war to "cripple" a "first world power" country economically.

hiya MMA,

my apologies, i didn't post clearly enough.

the bit you highlighted was in reference to what China may be doing to the US, not the other way around - as much as it was related to possible US countermeasures.

my bad, mate.

to continue, though, in that direction, i think the US has clearly shown in the most utmost way (Iraq? Afghanistan?) that it will engage in fiscally ruinous foreign policy if it feels that there are national security interests at stake (and i think its non controversial to say that the economic health of the United States is closely tied to its national security).

so i wouldn't be so certain.

my points regarding China buying US debt was simply that it doesn't really provide the Chinese with an "ace in the hole", regarding their relations with the US. far from it.

the LA Times article was instructive as it indicates at least one interpretation of China's cyber espionage as it relates to US corporations, which was the central thrust of my OP.

- IGIT

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

well, its like this. if i leave my doors open at night and all the lights on and i get robbed...its kinda on me.

if i lock my doors at night and have an alarm system build in, then i've taken reasonable measures to protect myself.

you know, reasonable.

Instead of analogies how about speaking on this situation? Explain why corporations not protecting their data adequately is something for the men and women of the armed forces to lose life and limb over? Which corporation lost what and why is it so vital to me?

if i'm a businessman and the Peoples Liberation Army, aided and abetted by Central Military Commission of China is undermining my corporation's ability to survive due to cyber espionage....yeah, i'd expect the Federal Government to lend a hand.

wouldn't you?

- IGIT

I don't see how your corporation's survival (assuming somehow espionage does indeed drive you out of business, although I'd love to hear an example) means good men and women should be sent off to die for it.

Are there no remedies in international court? If not then I guess stealing from cross-border competitors is fair game so get to it. A little less whining and a little more gumption goes a long way.

 

[IGIT]

hiya Cubo,

Instead of analogies how about speaking on this situation? Explain why corporations not protecting their data adequately is something for the men and women of the armed forces to lose life and limb over? Which corporation lost what and why is it so vital to me?

you asked me to define reasonable, so i provided you an analogy that any lay person would understand. my area of expertise isn't cyber security, so i can't really give you any details or insight as to what reasonable countermeasures are in that field, though i assume they exist.

Are there no remedies in international court? If not then I guess stealing from cross-border competitors is fair game so get to it. A little less whining and a little more gumption goes a long way.

there may be remedies in International Court, though i have no idea if China falls under its auspices...and while its all well and good to advocate a company to then engage in counterespionage, its hard for a lone company to go "heads up" against the Chinese government and its military.

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

I don't see how your corporation's survival (assuming somehow espionage does indeed drive you out of business, although I'd love to hear an example) means good men and women should be sent off to die for it.

hello once more Cubo,

this last bit, and then i am off to sleep.

The 56-page indictment describes the hacking of five companies and a trade union. All but one are located in the Western District of Pennsylvania, where the charges were brought.

The companies — which include U.S. Steel, the country’s largest steelmaker, and Alcoa, the largest aluminum manufacturer — agreed to come forward, bucking what for years had been a reluctance by many firms to acknowledge that they had been hacked for fear of shareholder lawsuits and damage to reputation.

“There has come a point at which enough is enough,” said David Hickton, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvania. “The companies are tired of being raided.”

The other companies are Westinghouse Electric, which builds nuclear power plants; Allegheny Technologies, a metals manufacturer; and SolarWorld, which makes solar products in Hillsboro, Ore. Also hit was the United Steelworkers union, which opposes Chinese trade practices.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...6c9992-df45-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html

you asked what companies have been driven out of business - all you have to do is take a look at US based solar panel producers.

- IGIT

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

hiya Cubo,



you asked me to define reasonable, so i provided you an analogy that any lay person would understand. my area of expertise isn't cyber security, so i can't really give you any details or insight as to what reasonable countermeasures are in that field, though i assume they exist.



there may be remedies in International Court, though i have no idea if China falls under its auspices...and while its all well and good to advocate a company to then engage in counterespionage, its hard for a lone company to go "heads up" against the Chinese government and its military.

- IGIT

So you wonder about war but don't know anything of the steps preceding it? I guess I'm not hearing a case for it (war) in this thread so there you go. Unless you believe the US military operates at the discretion of some particular company??

hello once more Cubo,

this last bit, and then i am off to sleep.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...6c9992-df45-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html

you asked what companies have been driven out of business - all you have to do is take a look at US based solar panel producers.

- IGIT

Sorry but the US indicting anyone on international charges is a joke. Now that we have that out of the way...the Chinese government subsidizes solar panels don't they? Getting subsidized and undercutting the competition is hardly the same thing as stealing a secret, beating someone to market and thereby dominating the competition. Don't most patents need to be registered? Other than the formula for coke what's a company making money off of that can't be reverse engineered from said company's product available for sale? Maybe the Chinese learn which politicians these companies bribe and are counter bribing them? I'm still waiting for the part where you explain how a corporation getting injured means jack shit to me and the average person I encounter each day.

 

[IGIT]

hello again Cubo!

So you wonder about war but don't know anything of the steps preceding it? I guess I'm not hearing a case for it (war) in this thread so there you go. Unless you believe the US military operates at the discretion of some particular company??

i think i'm aware of some of the steps that can lead to war, sure. do you know a great deal about the steps that lead to war? if you do, please, feel free to hold forth on the topic.

regarding whether the US military operates under the discretion of a particular company - no, i don't that is the case, do you? if you don't and i don't, who made that point, my friend?

certainly not me.

Sorry but the US indicting anyone on international charges is a joke.

maybe, but the Justice Dept. has done just that.

Now that we have that out of the way...the Chinese government subsidizes solar panels don't they?

yep they do...then again, so does the US government.

Getting subsidized and undercutting the competition is hardly the same thing as stealing a secret, beating someone to market and thereby dominating the competition.

i'm glad you agree with me on that point. cyber espionage perpetrated against US corporations courtesy of the Chinese military is definitely a different kettle of fish.

Don't most patents need to be registered? Other than the formula for coke what's a company making money off of that can't be reverse engineered from said company's product available for sale?

an interesting topic, but not germane to the discussion of corporate cyberespionage.

Maybe the Chinese learn which politicians these companies bribe and are counter bribing them?

maybe they do, maybe they don't. maybe the Chinese have magicians and conjure up solutions using the liver of a horned toad and dried tiger testicles, but again, none of this is germane to the OP.

I'm still waiting for the part where you explain how a corporation getting injured means jack shit to me and the average person I encounter each day.

it may or it may not, i guess, depending on who you know and whom you encounter. just because something doesn't affect you, personally, doesn't mean it has no effect. you're just a single fellow, my friend.

if a company goes belly up, or experiences economic distress because its trade secrets are being pillaged via the Chinese military - i would imagine thats a few more people on welfare or out of a job, which taxpayers (maybe you don't earn enough to pay income taxes?) have to pay for.

sometimes, Cubo, the effect is indirect - but it still affects many americans.

anyways, good talking to you.

its time for sleep, finally.

- IGIT

ps - i think at least we'd agree that the United States intelligence agencies ought to ramp up their own cyber espionage against Chinese corporations. that seems like a fair countermeasure to take.