Discussion in 'The War Room' started by IGIT, May 20, 2014.
Lol the war started decades ago my friend. You just don't see the casualties from where you are.
Should the country that got caught tapping the phone of the leader of its ally, Germany, go to war over stupid and aggressive acts of espionage? I vote no - America looks bad enough in the world eye already.
sure, this isn't a new development.
let's say the US government or US corporations successfully mount a huge, counterattack in cyberspace - can you see a point where this sort of activity would lead directly to armed conflict?
right, that was the second question i posed.
the US has no leg to stand on, then. i mean, it certainly can't scramble for moral high ground on this issue.
I think the cyberwar has been going on for a while now. This is just one battle that we lost and was made public.
if we (meaning the United States) lost enough of these economically based cyber attacks in spectacular fashion, would there be a point where an armed response was justifiable?
What's with the weird posting style?
This won't lead to war. It will cause lots of butthurt and rustled jimmies though, plus hilarious self-righteous denials from both sides. I used to think spying is a bit of a gentleman's game, but it seems countries are getting nasty with each other.
As far as armed response goes, it's batshit insane to attack a nuclear power directly.
They already have our best technology being produced in china already. They copy our shit all the time. It's horrible but it seems like US corporations like for the Chinese to steal their secrets anyway. Why would this be so much different.
what do you mean? you're posting just like me. we're paisan, my friend.
do you mean to ask why doesn't everyone else post like us?
To answer your question simply, yes. However it is not unprovoked or unprecedented. Our (US) intelligence community has done all that and far worse.
i don't know why people keep repeating the bolded.
i get that the NSA and CIA have done the same or worse, but in a way, that's also irrelevant.
the United States also topples and undermines sovereign governments - then we install our own puppet autocrat who'll do business with us. the US does this all the time, but do any of you think the US would tolerate any country doing this to them?
my question isn't based on the US seeking moral high ground...that ship has sailed anyway. it's based on whether or not the US would eventually respond to these instances of cyber theft (which undermine the US economy) with an armed response?
Depends on the country doing it. China, Russia, or another country with an actual military? No way. But if some small country with a military consisting of rocket launchers in the back of pickup trucks was doing it, yes the US would probably attack.
In another thread, where I was showing a poster that this corporate espionage was going on for a while, I cited a singular attack where China hacked around 700+ companies, and the article was titled "beginning of the cold war." That was four years ago. We are in a war, good sir.
I don't see these acts, with theirs aggregate damage as comparable to a military strike (the sort of thing that most viscerally equates to an act of war, IMO). It could eventfully become a procedural sort of thing that's viewed as an act f war if there's a broader increase in tensions between any two countries engaged in what now is mostly just technological dick measuring. I'm thinking Cuban missile crisis, quarantine versus blockade, if one side is angry enough this could, even a the scale described, be seen as an act of war. Certainly if something like this caused serious economic damage, that would be more likely to escalate tensions rapidly.
I don't see it as hypocritical really, as the underlying belief of any sovereign nation should always be to support actions that serve national interests and to denounce the actions of others that damage the nation. And while it may be difficult to find allies on the broader philosophical questions surrounding cyber warfare, given the understood Scope of American programs, it would likely be easier to find allies against Chinese cyber attacks, specifically in countries that share some of the economic impact.
You're damn right it's an act of war and the same was done to China when we flew our B52 bombers over its air defense zone.
Espionage done in the guise of "national security," is one thing. Espionage done against non-military, non-political private business to undermind them is totally different.
They have stolen some of our technology but there is no reason to think they have our best . The only way for them them prove they have our best tech is to field weapons and industrial tech that is nearly identical to ours. So far they have not shown this.
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