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Is there a connection between American wrestling culture and cheating?

Fedorgasm said:
The common thread is not American wrestling, it's Americans. We have this stupid culture of winning at all costs which encourages cheating.

I like the Japanese culture better, where they value courage and honor above wins and losses.
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This is why Akiyama is considered Korean after the Saku fight. Bitchass orange goof.
 
There is some to it, I have followed wrestling and been close to wrestling for many years having sparred with olympic level wrestlers. When shit gets desperate, alot of them "bend" the rules. Attacking with headbutts and bending the fingers are very, very common. It is not legal, but just a part of it. The ref tells them to stop, but nothing really happens.
But I don't know if there is statistics that former wrestlers cheat more than other martial artists in MMA, some are mentioned here but there are dirty fighters from most disciplines.
 
Doctor Grudge said:
There is cheating in all cultures....the stereotypes about Brazilian's and Russians cheating at sports is far greater than any slander about Americans cheating. Do they have a "win at all cost" culture too?

Americans are not particularly known for cheating. This is totally just some random sherdog thing.

TS listed 4 guys, look up how many Americans have ever fought in the UFC. Do the math and see how easily this is to debunk.
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Americans like to think that but outside of that US/UK bubble Americans rep is not clearly so clean.

This idea that foreign MMA camps were full of PED users and the US was somehow clean really does not bare out any serious analysis, a pretty high percentage of those caught on PED(or very likely on them) have been American and a lot of the rest have been foreign fighters training in America.

I would say part of it comes down to how PED culture manifests, in places like Russia and much of eastern Europe you have more of a history of state controlled PED use but MMA fighters tend not to be involved with state programs, there often people who fell though the cracks of sports like Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, etc and ended up in MMA(often via Sambo who is very small scale). Not to say there isnt a good deal of PED use in such camps, I suspect there still is but I think the "Russians Dope" rep really relates more to athletes who get into Olympic programs.

The US by comparison I would argue that PED use is much less linked to public bodies, maybe testers might turn a blind eye(espeically back in the 80's) but the actual PED use tended to happen in individual camps and perhaps as importantly in gyms generally and even in collages or high schools. I think that carries over into MMA much more as MMA camps are much more similar to those enviroments or indeed actually part of them and they share the same PED culture.

As far as cheating generally I think that is rather more generalised, I mean its not like we haven't seen some massive cheaters from outside the US. Maybe you could argue that the jock mentality and wrestling being very much about winning from the start foster that a bit more than some other arts with more of a traditional MA tradition?
 
The issue isn't some cultural willingness to cheat. The issue is whether it is normalized for some but not for others. It's not about nationality, it's about money - but money and nationality intersect in fight promotion.

Conor is not going to get treated the same way as some undercard bum, obviously. On an individual level, nationality is irrelevant.

But top American fighters in an American promotion, in a primarily American market, with primarily American media are, as a collective, going to be treated more favorably than anyone else. Just like Japanese fighters in Pride. Polish fighters in KSW etc.

Look at how TRT Vitor was perceived vs how TRT Hendo was perceived. Massive difference. One is the foreign villain, the other the American hero. Both juiced to the tits.

You'd probably find that the number of filthy cheats a nation has correlates strongly with whether they are fighting in a promotion based in their nation.
 
ChessJitsu said:
Just a stream of thoughts I had 5 minutes ago...

Who are the most prolific cheaters in UFC history?

Jon Jones is easily #1 with eye pokes, steroids, etc.

Then you have Kamaru Usman, Michael Chandler, TJ Dillashaw.

Then you have guys who don't necessarily cheat but try to win by foul-calling or exaggerating/exploiting technicalities like Sterling and Weidman.

Also it's common when 2 wrestlers fight, and 1 of them fouls, the other one starts trying to outfoul the person (Colby-Kamaru, DC-Stipe).

Is there a connection here or am I reaching?
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Oh are there people who did anything to win? Wow that's so terrible. How will we ever recover?
WAAAAAH MOMMMY ITS NOT FAIR HES TRYING TO WIN MOMMMMEYYYYYYY
 
There is a lot of cheating in wrestling. It's the thing I hated the most. But I would say the same with all sports.

Soccer, basketball, football, bjj, boxing etc etc. Every competition level, it's more rare you see a completely clean game/match. Guys are always trying to get away with things when the ref isn't looking, or do things that's grey.
 
Why are you picking on Americans for cheating? Brazilians cheat way more than we do.

Name me one high profile Brazilian MMA fighter who hasn't been caught using performance enhancers other than JDS or RDA. Obviously there are more than just those two but chances are if you name me a Brazilian MMA fighter there's an 80% chance they've popped positive.

Oh, and their soccer players dive all the god damn time as well.
 
moreorless87 said:
Americans like to think that but outside of that US/UK bubble Americans rep is not clearly so clean.

This idea that foreign MMA camps were full of PED users and the US was somehow clean really does not bare out any serious analysis, a pretty high percentage of those caught on PED(or very likely on them) have been American and a lot of the rest have been foreign fighters training in America.

I would say part of it comes down to how PED culture manifests, in places like Russia and much of eastern Europe you have more of a history of state controlled PED use but MMA fighters tend not to be involved with state programs, there often people who fell though the cracks of sports like Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, etc and ended up in MMA(often via Sambo who is very small scale). Not to say there isnt a good deal of PED use in such camps, I suspect there still is but I think the "Russians Dope" rep really relates more to athletes who get into Olympic programs.

The US by comparison I would argue that PED use is much less linked to public bodies, maybe testers might turn a blind eye(espeically back in the 80's) but the actual PED use tended to happen in individual camps and perhaps as importantly in gyms generally and even in collages or high schools. I think that carries over into MMA much more as MMA camps are much more similar to those enviroments or indeed actually part of them and they share the same PED culture.

As far as cheating generally I think that is rather more generalised, I mean its not like we haven't seen some massive cheaters from outside the US. Maybe you could argue that the jock mentality and wrestling being very much about winning from the start foster that a bit more than some other arts with more of a traditional MA tradition?
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Maybe I misunderstood your first sentence. Are you saying that Americans think their reputation is bad? Or that Americans think it is good but their reputation is bad.


I do not live in America, so I am not bubbled and I do not believe the US/UK would be in the same sports bubble, as their sports are vastly different. US/Canada would make more sense.






Yes, steroid use is very common in MMA in America. Though people do PEDs everywhere, the only reason why some places might have less use is accessibility, not nationality. It is easy to get steroids in Japan, so people do steroids in Japan. Has little to do with culture, as Japanese and American culture are nothing alike.

Also, half the guys the TS mentioned are there for fouling not substance abuse. (and even though Jones popped, his reputation is mainly for fouling)
 
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I had a similar question recently.

Which American wrestler is not a complete dick?

Might be a side effect from the roids in their NCAA days but it's remarkably consistent.
 
ChessJitsu said:
Just a stream of thoughts I had 5 minutes ago...

Who are the most prolific cheaters in UFC history?

Jon Jones is easily #1 with eye pokes, steroids, etc.

Then you have Kamaru Usman, Michael Chandler, TJ Dillashaw.

Then you have guys who don't necessarily cheat but try to win by foul-calling or exaggerating/exploiting technicalities like Sterling and Weidman.

Also it's common when 2 wrestlers fight, and 1 of them fouls, the other one starts trying to outfoul the person (Colby-Kamaru, DC-Stipe).

Is there a connection here or am I reaching?
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Actually a really good theory, I give it a thumbs up the ass
 
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