Is moose the #2 mw all time?

lol at "literally"
The "history of the sport" is funny as well, You firmly believe the UFC belt is "literally" equivalent to the NBA ring, Vince Lombardy Trophy or the Tour de France...

Mousasi is the former Strikeforce, Bellator and Dream champion, all mma promotions if you didnt know.
Left UFC for more money in a killer 5 winning streak that is no risk in saying it would have been rewarded with a tittle shot at any point in the history of the promotion.
A promoter letting go a top contender riding such a run being the stronger part in the negotiation. There is no precedent of it, LITERALLY.
At no point in the history of MMA was a Strikeforce, Bellator, or DREAM champion ranked as the #1 fighter in the world. Never.

I understand this is complicated but being a champion in random MMA promotion #23 is not the same as being the consensus #1 fighter in the world. Being the #1 athlete or team in your sport is what sports legacy is built around. Nobody cares or remembers who the 5th best boxer was in the world during Mike Tyson's run.
 
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Thats not speak plainly. Its just a vastly flawed assesment of Gergard's career.

"pedestrian" "above average" career you say...you really dont know what u r talking about, and should check how his fellow pro fighers speak about Mousasi to realize

I don't think he is #2 of all time...but certainly top10.
Let's see the top ten mw ever in your book so we can appreciate the difference between "above average" and top10 of all time, although we both know you simply posted shit lol

Again, Gegard has been hit or miss when facing the top competition at 185. With the exception of Weidman, Kang and Shlemenko all of Gegard's top wins in the division have an asterisk next to them.
- Machida 41(beat moose in his prime)
- Henderson 45
- belfort 39
- Lombard 2 years into his career
- Souza 12 pro fights( jacare won the rematch and moose still acknowledges that jacare is the better man.)

He's never been ranked #1 in the division. Never held a title in the premier organization of the sport. Never fought Silva, Rockhold, Romero, Whitaker, Bisping, Sonnen. Outside of weidman has he beat a top middleweight in the prime of their career?
 
At no point in the history of MMA was a Strikeforce, Bellator, or DREAM champion ranked as the #1 fighter in the world. Never.

I understand this is complicated but being a champion in random MMA promotion #23 is not the same as being the consensus #1 fighter in the world. Being the #1 athlete or team in your sport is what sports legacy is built around. Nobody cares or remembers who the 5th best boxer was in the world during Mike Tyson's run.
uh..you just proved why championships dont matter. the #1 person in a sport isn't always the champion....hence why you shouldn't just blindly rank guys on championship status. I mean you actually used boxing as an example - you do realize that in boxing the fighter is much more important than the championship itself right? No one who follow boxing cares about championships - ditto with boxing and muay thai, people rank fighters based on who they beat and how they beat them, the championships are just trinkets and after thoughts. And to the fellow who giggled that championships are the center of all sports (true in a sense, but not relevant to my point) in team sports the #1 ranked player is seldom the champion that year...

You are basically saying champion = #1 athlete which isn't true in combat sports or team sports because of how booking works (and in team sports many other variables of course). Championship stacking only works in select sports not applicable to MMA; ie racing sports like track and field, swimming or sports promote via open tournaments like tennis and golf.

Someone who never won a championship in MMA can be a much better fighter than someone who has, this is true in the UFC and in the b league promotions. Hence my original stance - I do not care about championships...I don't need a belt to be able to tell who is the best fighter because I am not retarded. Even Joe Rogan can grasp this.

Again, there is a strong correlation between being the best and being a champion but that doesn't mean that being the best = the champion, or champions > non champions (if this were true there would be no point in contenders...)

If PRIDE never had a HW belt and all the fights were the exact same (and the way their booking worked they absolutely could have done this) - Fedor would still be Fedor. Championships are a marketing tool, not sure how people can post on an MMA forum for a long time and not even understand the core concept of why championship belts exist in booking sports. PRIDE was the #1 promotion and championships were not nearly that large of a focus because their marketing strategies were different from the UFC.


edit: Sorry for the passive-aggressiveness, I might be confusing you with a past poster because I just quickly skimmed the last page.
 
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If that's your whole arument....weak

28 significant strikes out of 35 total strikes landed by Machida
36 significant strikes out of 66 total strikes landed by Mousasi

About Machida being past his prime...not under USADA and with a chisseled body in his mid 30s....weak
The real argument is that Gregard never won a UFC title. He beat Chris badly, but Chris has 3 title UFC title defences and dethroned the GoAT while Anderson was in peak form.
 
At no point in the history of MMA was a Strikeforce, Bellator, or DREAM champion ranked as the #1 fighter in the world. Never.

I understand this is complicated but being a champion in random MMA promotion #23 is not the same as being the consensus #1 fighter in the world. Being the #1 athlete or team in your sport is what sports legacy is built around. Nobody cares or remembers who the 5th best boxer was in the world during Mike Tyson's run.
But a WAMMA HW champ was ;)
 
Rich Franklin? lol Americans
Respect to him but nobody outside of USA would place him even top 10 of all time, rightfully so.
I'd place him in my top 10 the lower half of course but still top ten. If ppl are going to have Hendo in I don't see why not Franklin MW is just not that packed with all time greats outside of Anderson.
 
I'd place him in my top 10 the lower half of course but still top ten. If ppl are going to have Hendo in I don't see why not Franklin MW is just not that packed with all time greats outside of Anderson.

How can you even compare Henderson's career with Franklin's?
Dan Henderson has one of the best careers ever p4p
 
How can you even compare Henderson's career with Franklin's?
Dan Henderson has one of the best careers ever p4p
Probably due to Franklin beating him and if it wasn't for that shitty dec would have that win on his record. What Hendo ever do at MW other then knockingout Bisping and winning the Pride 83kg tournament?
 
Probably due to Franklin beating him and if it wasn't for that shitty dec would have that win on his record. What Hendo ever do at MW other then knockingout Bisping and winning the Pride 83kg tournament?

Henderson is greater than Franklin, period. Look at the guys he has fought. You won't hear any fighter discussing that.

Henderson and Franklin are about the same size, both have competed routinely at 185 and 205.
Now if you just care about when they performed after a big weight cut or not, I let you alone in that discussion.
They actually fought each other at 205 so by your stupid logic doesnt matter who got that decision, or if someone got KOed, it counts as mch as if the fight never happened.
Of course it counts as it counts for Machida to dismantle Franklin at whatever weight it took place.

That split dec loss to Hendo is actually one of the best perfomances in Franklin's career btw, if not the best. On his part, Henderson had at least as good performance that day, plus so many wins with no judge needed over a row of great fighters... of different sizes/reaches/weights or any other variable you want to set the whole discussion around in an exercise of stupidity, don't know if you realize

Franklin simply is not one of the best 10 fighters we have ever seen in mma of his size.
I would place him #5 best American MW. Dont think he tops any top5 all-time MW from Brazil either; and for sure I consider Yoel Romero, Whittaker and Mousasi to be greater than Franklin.
Still top 20 most likely, greatly due to the credit of a close fight with Henderson
 
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Henderson is greater than Franklin, period. Look at the guys he has fought. You won't hear any fighter discussing that.

Henderson and Franklin are about the same size, both have competed routinely at 185 and 205.
Now if you just care about when they performed after a big weight cut or not, I let you alone in that discussion.
They actually fought each other at 205 so by your stupid logic doesnt matter who got that decision, or if someone got KOed, it counts as mch as if the fight never happened.
Of course it counts as it counts for Machida to dismantle Franklin at whatever weight it took place.

That split dec loss to Hendo is actually one of the best perfomances in Franklin's career btw, if not the best. On his part, Henderson had at least as good performance that day, plus so many wins with no judge needed over a row of great fighters... of different sizes/reaches/weights or any other variable you want to set the whole discussion around in an exercise of stupidity, don't know if you realize

Franklin simply is not one of the best 10 fighters we have ever seen in mma of his size.
I would place him #5 best American MW. Dont think he tops any top5 all-time MW from Brazil either; and for sure I consider Yoel Romero, Whittaker and Mousasi to be greater than Franklin.
Still top 20 most likely, greatly due to the credit of a close fight with Henderson
name 10 MWs better then Franklin in his prime
 
name 10 MWs better then Franklin in his prime

- From Brazil:
Anderson Silva
Vitor Belfort
Lyoto Machida
Jacare Souza
Paulo Filho (arguably)
Murilo Bustamante (arguably)

- From USA:
Dan Henderson
Luke Rockhold
Chris Weidman
Chael Sonnen (arguably)

- Out of USA and Brazil:
Gegard Mousasi
Yoel Romero
Robert Whittaker
Israel Adesanya
Michael Bisping (arguably)
Sakuraba (arguably, its a very unique case)

So I just mentioned 11 who are undoubtedly better than Franklin in my book, plus some others who have a case.
Then there are Paulo Costa or Kelvin Gastelum who are still young but are already on his way to surpass him.
Franklin was still very good; as I said top5 MW ever from America and, at least, top20 worlwide of all time.

Just saying he is often very overrated by American fans who swallowed the posterboy UFC wanted to sell them back in the day, when UFC wasn't interested to offer money at the hardest challengers that were around back then (Bustamante, Lindland, Henderson, Filho). Plus many MWs have emerged since 2006 that are better than Franklin, so there is that
 
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