Is MMA as evolved as many think?

HP_Nut said:
I do think the overall avg skill level is higher (especially striking), but people act like there's no way any of the old legends would've been able to compete today, even if they were in their prime. Up until recently, Lewis was the #1 HW contender. Glover has been around forever & is now LHW champ. Is there anything Israel does that Anderson couldn't? Usman has effective striking but in terms of technique, his striking is not high level. Colby is currently #1 WW contender but his striking isn't very good (got lit up by K1 Maia). I think GSP is more skilled than Usman (doesn't necessarily mean GSP would win because Usman has other intangibles like power).
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It's evolved but that doesn't mean fighters from older eras can't get wins. Their skillset is still elite and they can still get wins using their strengths even if mma has evolved overall.
 
of course

overall fighters are more complete, bigger and have better conditioning

guys like gsp and silva would still be at the top, but many of the top guys during their era wouldn't
 
HP_Nut said:
Like I said, overall skill level is higher (especially striking) but when people claim Fedor, Anderson, & GSP or other legends, even in their prime, wouldn't be able to compete, isn't it farfetched? I pointed out examples like Lewis being #1 contender, Israel & Usman are not more skilled than Anderson & GSP IMO. How about some rebuttals instead? I'm for good discussions, not trolling & I don't think this is a stupid thread. Glover has been around for about 20 yrs & just became champ too
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The people who claim those guys couldn't hang are every bit as dumb as the people saying the sport hasn't evolved. It's 100% a casual thing to say.

Using the best of the division as the only measuring stick of evolution is just dumb. Similarly, discount the achievements and skill of those who are responsible for upping the game is equally dumb.
 
Orochimaru 大蛇丸 said:
Nobody reasonable claims that, you’re making up a fake argument to prove your point
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Actually there are plenty of people who believe that none of the legends would be able to compete in todays MMA, even if they were in their prime, because MMA has evolved by leaps & bounds according to these people
 
HP_Nut said:
Actually there are plenty of people who believe that none of the legends would be able to compete in todays MMA, even if they were in their prime, because MMA has evolved by leaps & bounds according to these people
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You’re reading troll comments, nobody legitimately thinks Anderson would get smoked by guys today. He wasn’t even fighting that long ago lol.
 
HP_Nut said:
I do think the overall avg skill level is higher (especially striking), but people act like there's no way any of the old legends would've been able to compete today, even if they were in their prime. Up until recently, Lewis was the #1 HW contender. Glover has been around forever & is now LHW champ. Is there anything Israel does that Anderson couldn't? Usman has effective striking but in terms of technique, his striking is not high level. Colby is currently #1 WW contender but his striking isn't very good (got lit up by K1 Maia). I think GSP is more skilled than Usman (doesn't necessarily mean GSP would win because Usman has other intangibles like power).
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Not in the way most casuals think.

Would not dispute the talent level is DEEPER. More mainstream = more fighters entering the sport.

However top level talent from yesterday, if born today, would still excel having access to the knowledge/training methods/science/nutrition/PEDs/partners/etc... of today.

The bell-curve is still a bell-curve, and even though the population has increased in size, the outliers will still be outliers because of their own genetics/work ethic/natural talent/etc...
 
HP_Nut said:
I do think the overall avg skill level is higher (especially striking), but people act like there's no way any of the old legends would've been able to compete today, even if they were in their prime. Up until recently, Lewis was the #1 HW contender. Glover has been around forever & is now LHW champ. Is there anything Israel does that Anderson couldn't? Usman has effective striking but in terms of technique, his striking is not high level. Colby is currently #1 WW contender but his striking isn't very good (got lit up by K1 Maia). I think GSP is more skilled than Usman (doesn't necessarily mean GSP would win because Usman has other intangibles like power).
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Let’s get Royce Gracie in there with Usman and find out.
 
At the end of the day. Its still a fight. The rules are still the same. You might find a few freak guys here n there. But its not like a guy 10 yrs ago would be clueless.
 
Relative to the early days, yeah it has.
 
JSF said:
Not in the way most casuals think.

Would not dispute the talent level is DEEPER. More mainstream = more fighters entering the sport.

However top level talent from yesterday, if born today, would still excel having access to the knowledge/training methods/science/nutrition/PEDs/partners/etc... of today.

The bell-curve is still a bell-curve, and even though the population has increased in size, the outliers will still be outliers because of their own genetics/work ethic/natural talent/etc...
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Couldn't you literally say that about any sport then?

Sports don't improve because a handful of individuals. They improve because the average quality of athlete improves, thus making it more impressive when new athletes stand out. That can take decades at times.
 
HP_Nut said:
I do think the overall avg skill level is higher (especially striking), but people act like there's no way any of the old legends would've been able to compete today, even if they were in their prime. Up until recently, Lewis was the #1 HW contender. Glover has been around forever & is now LHW champ. Is there anything Israel does that Anderson couldn't? Usman has effective striking but in terms of technique, his striking is not high level. Colby is currently #1 WW contender but his striking isn't very good (got lit up by K1 Maia). I think GSP is more skilled than Usman (doesn't necessarily mean GSP would win because Usman has other intangibles like power).
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Put a prime Rich Franklin against Adesanya, a prime Matt Hughes against Usman, a prime Uriah Faber against Volkonovski, a prime Migel Torres against Peter Yan, a prime BJ Penn against Oliveria. How do you think those Legends would do? They would get destroyed.

You're using two of the literal GOAT's to make a claim about the sport as a whole. You're ignoring all the other "old legends". These match ups should show you why your argument is absurd, not to mention that you shifted the goal post; no one says that a prime Anderson or GSP, couldn't compete at the very top today.
 
My observation is for those in the UFC their primes don't begin until after they have that first loss because then they have to dig deep to climb there way back up. Hence not many primes begin before age 30 and younger fighters are more vulnerable to a poor performances.

Secondly its not even worth saying a fighter had a prime unless there was a period of time where he cracked the Top 5 of his division. Fighters who are ranked 10-15 unless they are new feel like gatekeepers to me.

There is something to be said for the heart of champion making a difference in fights that would still be there with the older generations. Athletic talent wins out over strength training. How many times has the UFC brought in guys that look like beasts who tear it up for a while only to have a consummate martial artist put them into their rightful place? Paulo Costa is one of those knocked down to size in his last couple of fights.
 
ShreddinMMA said:
Couldn't you literally say that about any sport then?

Sports don't improve because a handful of individuals. They improve because the average quality of athlete improves, thus making it more impressive when new athletes stand out. That can take decades at times.
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Yes we can, and do.

That's why we have these debates everywhere. From Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain for basketball, Gretzky and Lemieux, Ali and Tyson, Mantle and Ruth, Jesse Owen and Michael Johnson, Pele and Maradona etc.

I stand by my statement. The greatest would always be great, no matter what the era. They were elite relative to their peers for their individual characteristics, not due to "the average". Today's athletes will always "look better" because the bar is being set higher, but that requires the bar to be set in the first place by the previous. The new generations have past achievements to shoot for - the past never has that.

But my argument is that the elite would still be elite if born in the future, as they would adjust based on what was available at the time. Why would people assume otherwise? Why assume yesterday's athletes would ignore and not use what's available today, if born today?

Einstein, Da Vinci, Tesla, etc... would still be genius today, despite the fact that the "average quality" of knowledge/education of the GENERAL population is higher than the past..... or do you actually think they would be "average" if born today?

Do you honestly think the engineers that built the ancient pyramids using slaves and primitive tech, would not do wonders with today's knowledge? Or you do actually think they would not do better than what they built 1000s of years ago?

That's the problem with your argument. You are using the general population to generalize the outliers. I argue that the elites are separate, and even if the general population "evolves", the elite would always be elite, no matter what the era.
 
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It has definitely evolved but of course there are some legends that would still excel today. GSP and Anderson are obvious examples. I think Couture and Franklin would do alright as well.
 
Phill said:
Put a prime Rich Franklin against Adesanya, a prime Matt Hughes against Usman, a prime Uriah Faber against Volkonovski, a prime Migel Torres against Peter Yan, a prime BJ Penn against Oliveria. How do you think those Legends would do? They would get destroyed.

You're using two of the literal GOAT's to make a claim about the sport as a whole. You're ignoring all the other "old legends". These match ups should show you why your argument is absurd, not to mention that you shifted the goal post; no one says that a prime Anderson or GSP, couldn't compete at the very top today.
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Prime Rich lost badly to Anderson, whom IMO is comparable to Israel. I would even say Anderson has a better ground game than Israel. Prime Hughes lost badly to GSP in the rematch, whom I feel skillwise is better than Usman (not saying GSP would necessarily win, because Usman has more finishing power & other intangibles). I actually think prime BJ beats Oliveira, & yes, I'm being serious.

I never disputed the sport has evolved (especially in striking), but when you have guys like Lewis as #1 contender, 42 yr old Glover as champ, a similar fighter to Anderson but with a worse ground game as MW champ, & Colby as #1 WW contender (Colby does not have very good striking, he's a great wrestler who uses his cardio & pressure to help offset his striking), it makes me think it hasn't evolved as much as some people make it out. Like there are a bunch of WWs from GSP's era who have great wrestling like Colby, its not like Colby has invented any new wrestling techniques we've never seen
 
HW and LHW are far worse now, they are bordering on dreadful

the lighter divisions is where its become more skilled and talented, divisions like BW and FW for example
 
Phill said:
Put a prime Rich Franklin against Adesanya, a prime Matt Hughes against Usman, a prime Uriah Faber against Volkonovski, a prime Migel Torres against Peter Yan, a prime BJ Penn against Oliveria. How do you think those Legends would do? They would get destroyed.

You're using two of the literal GOAT's to make a claim about the sport as a whole. You're ignoring all the other "old legends". These match ups should show you why your argument is absurd, not to mention that you shifted the goal post; no one says that a prime Anderson or GSP, couldn't compete at the very top today.
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those other guys sure, but BJ vs Oliveira? i don't know about Oliveira destroying that guy. skill for skill BJ and Oliveira are not far apart if at all.
 
  1. A kneeless old Rampage Jackson did better against a prime Glover than Smith , Santos , Krylov and Jan did against and a 42 years old dinosauric Glover
  2. Machida did better against Mousassi than Santos(who just beat walker and had a fight that could have gone either way against Rakic)
  3. Old man shogun didn t got submited by craig like ankalaev did lol so mutch for the evolution of the sport
 
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