Is Max Holloway Conor's best win ?

[markg171]

Starting to smell troll. However...

"Right after" doesn't equal 3-4 years, especially early in a fighter's career.

And that's moot in a sport where fighters advance (or decline) as a function of age and other things.

Do you think we credit Luiz Azeredo with beating "the guy who won 11 straight MW titles fights" just like Chris Weidman did?

Of course not.

The point is that it's disingenuous to say this Max sucks if right afterwards is his 13 fight win streak that's his claim to fame. If he sucked at this point he'd have lost some of those fights too before hitting his stride. He didn't.

You can't have it both ways.

It's just as disingenuous to say this was champ Max as it is to say this was shitty Max.

 

[welcometohavoc]

Have u even seen Aldo’s fights after? Wasn’t the real aldo, my friend. Connor may not have knocked him out that fast in the second fight but I am 100% sure he would’ve hurt aldo in many different ways.

This is such a weird take because its generally accepted by most people that Aldo is one of the biggest freaks in terms of longevity. He's only lost to the absolute top fighters at FW/BW. Guys like Volk, Max, Yan, etc.

if anything, Conor had fallen off much more than Aldo since their fight

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

The point is that it's disingenuous to say this Max sucks if right afterwards is his 13 fight win streak that's his claim to fame. If he sucked at this point he'd have lost some of those fights too before hitting his stride. He didn't.

You can't have it both ways.

It's just as disingenuous to say this was champ Max as it is to say this was shitty Max.

No it isn't (and I didn't say "sucked").

At the time of the fight, when they fought, Max was unranked, or at least outside the top 10.

That's not an elite fighter. It's not more complicated than that. He was a good, solid prospect (who had lost his most recent fight). That's not remotely equivalent to "elite fighter" (let alone someone on Aldo's level or even champ Alvarez).

Whatever potential he had (he did, obviously) wasn't realized when they actually fought.

You get credits based off of how good your opponent was when you actually fought them, not how good they would be in the far future (or far past). You all are overthinking something really simple. Fighters get better and worse over time. That applies to basically every athlete in every sport.

Is Ryan Bader a GOAT HW because he beat Fedor (a man with a 30+ win streak at HW) twice in a dominating fashion? That's the same dynamic, just applied in the opposite direction.

 

[markg171]

No it isn't (and I didn't say "sucked").

At the time of the fight, when they fought, Max was unranked, or at least outside the top 10.

That's not an elite fighter. It's not more complicated than that. He as a good, solid prospect. That's not remotely equivalent to "elite fighter" (let alone someone on Aldo's level or even champ Alvarez).

Whatever potential he had (he did, obviously) wasn't realized when they actually fought.

You get credits based off of how good your opponent was when you actually fought them, not how good they would be in the far future (or far past). You all are overthinking something really simple. Fighters get better and worse over time. That applies to basically every athlete in every sport.

Is Ryan Bader a GOAT HW because he beat Fedor (a man with a 30+ win streak at HW) twice in a dominating fashion? That's the same dynamic, just applied in the opposite direction.

How are you determining his potential hadn't been realized though? You're using that he lost to McGregor. If he'd instead beaten him you'd say the opposite.

That's why we're saying you're being silly.

Again, it wasn't champ Max. It also wasn't some bum Max. The truth is somewhere in between and there's no way to know exactly how good or not he was at the time. You're only correct in that we should say that Max wasn't ranked at the time so don't pretend he was like TS and others are doing, and that you don't get to retroactively make it a bigger win than it was at the time.

The Bader/Fedor thing is just dumb though as when they first fought they literally fought for #1 and #2 Bellator HW as it was the finals of a Grand Prix, and their second fight was #1 vs #3. No, it wasn't Prime Fedor, but yes it still was a good win for Bader as Fedor was a top Bellator HW. Again, you'd be singing a complete opposite tune if Fedor had won and this is the hypocrisy we're pointing out. You're not a bum just cause you lose, especially when you lose to a good fighter.

 

[Poatan Power]

I don't know what tom foolery this topic is but you do realize that he knocked out Jose Aldo in like 7 seconds for the FW title after Aldo was untouchable for a decade?

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

How are you determining his potential hadn't been realized though?

By him losing to Bermudez and Conor consecutively (not to mention losing to DP 1.5 years earlier) versus KOing Aldo twice and handling Ortega/Frankie with relative ease (and having a competitive fight with Volk)? When the F do you think Max peaked? As a 22 year old kid in 2013?

At the time of the fight, Max was unranked. So someone beating him at that time gets credit for beating an unranked fighter (who sure, was a good prospect as well).

Again, you are overthinking things.

Conor beating Max in 2013 was one good prospect beating another good prospect.

In a career that includes wins over near-GOAT (Aldo), another champion (Alvarez, by humiliation), and even a small handful of guys like Mendes and FW Dustin, who were top 5 guys at the time, beating an unranked prospect doesn't move the needle much.

Conor's best wins are Aldo and Alvarez, by a lot. The gap to third is huge. The gap to 2013 Max is gigantic, Grand Canyon level.

 

[Lionheart7167]

No. Both were up and comers and green. Even the best lose early in their careers (see Volk, Islam, DJ, Silva)
Aldo was pretty unbelievable. Fluke or not (nope, it wasn't. He trained for it). Beating the consensus FW king and p4p candidate in such an emphatic way, was what elevated Mac.

 

[markg171]

By him losing to Bermudez and Conor consecutively (not to mention losing to DP 1.5 years earlier) versus KOing Aldo twice and handling Ortega/Frankie with relative ease (and having a competitive fight with Volk)? When the F do you think Max peaked? As a 22 year old kid in 2013?

At the time of the fight, Max was unranked. So someone beating him at that time gets credit for beating an unranked fighter (who sure, was a good prospect as well).

Again, you are overthinking things.

Conor beating Max in 2013 was one good prospect beating another good prospect.

In a career that includes wins over near-GOAT (Aldo), another champion (Alvarez, by humiliation), and even a small handful of guys like Mendes and FW Dustin, who were top 5 guys at the time, beating an unranked prospect doesn't move the needle much.

Conor's best wins are Aldo and Alvarez, by a lot. The gap to third is huge. The gap to 2013 Max is gigantic, Grand Canyon level.

Again, you're moving past the issue. You're saying he wasn't good because he lost to Bermudez and Conor. I'm pointing out if he'd beaten Conor you'd instead be saying he hit his stride after Bermudez seeing as his win streak starts there instead of after losing to Conor.

It's dumb. Leave it that he simply wasn't ranked yet and hadn't reached his eventual ceiling where yes he's a multi defending champion. It's neither a bad win nor a good win.

 

[Hazuki Ryo]

Starting to smell troll. However...

"Right after" doesn't equal 3-4 years, especially early in a fighter's career.

And that's moot in a sport where fighters advance (or decline) as a function of age and other things.

Do you think we credit Luiz Azeredo with beating "the guy who won 11 straight MW titles fights" just like Chris Weidman did?

Of course not.

No because Luiz Azeredo did shit afterwards. Max kept on winning. So where's the line between green and killer ?

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

Again, you're moving past the issue. You're saying he wasn't good because he lost to Bermudez and Conor..

No, I said he was non-elite and unranked. Because he was at that specific time. That's a factual matter, not an opinion.

Non-elite =/= "shitty". And no, beating Conor at that time would not indicate "elite or near elite status", for exactly the same reasons. It would be one good prospect beating another good prospect, just like Conor beating Max was.

In 2012/2013, he was literally 3-3 in the UFC with zero top wins and zero rank, and 0-2 against the other two primary prospects of his approximate age cohort that he faced.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

No because Luiz Azeredo did shit afterwards. Max kept on winning. So where's the line between green and killer ?

You become a killer when you beat killers (or at least strongly contend with them) for a meaningful period of time.

You become elite when you beat elite fighters (or at least strongly contend with them) for a meaningful period of time.

It's not that hard to understand.

Going into his fight with Conor, Max was 3-2 in the UFC, with zero top wins, zero rank, an immediate loss in his prior fight, and a loss against the other main prospect of his approximate age cohort in the not-amazingly distant past.

That's not a killer's resume/tenure.

 

[BigDramaShow26]

How are you determining his potential hadn't been realized though? You're using that he lost to McGregor. If he'd instead beaten him you'd say the opposite.

That's why we're saying you're being silly.

Again, it wasn't champ Max. It also wasn't some bum Max. The truth is somewhere in between and there's no way to know exactly how good or not he was at the time. You're only correct in that we should say that Max wasn't ranked at the time so don't pretend he was like TS and others are doing, and that you don't get to retroactively make it a bigger win than it was at the time.

The Bader/Fedor thing is just dumb though as when they first fought they literally fought for #1 and #2 Bellator HW as it was the finals of a Grand Prix, and their second fight was #1 vs #3. No, it wasn't Prime Fedor, but yes it still was a good win for Bader as Fedor was a top Bellator HW. Again, you'd be singing a complete opposite tune if Fedor had won and this is the hypocrisy we're pointing out. You're not a bum just cause you lose, especially when you lose to a good fighter.

How do we know? Watch the fights. He is not only a much better striker, he is much stronger physically. He is 10x the fighter he was then. It's obvious if you just watch the fights. Max is better now than he was vs. Porier 4 years ago too btw.

 

[VAfan]

aldo. not just quality of opponent but how he did it.

 

[markg171]

How do we know? Watch the fights. He is not only a much better striker, he is much stronger physically. He is 10x the fighter he was then. It's obvious if you just watch the fights. Max is better now than he was vs. Porier 4 years ago too btw.

Jesus Christ, wow I'm fucking shocked that a guy AT HIS ABSOLUTE BEST wasn't the same fighter before that ever happened.

Absolutely fucking mind boggling news there bud.

Thanks for the strawman argument that literally nobody has made as opposed to what people are actually talking about whether or not Max was decent/good then and not some bum like you guys try and pretend.

Fucking truly wild that this absolute bum of all people finishes all of Cope, Fili, Collard, and Corassani in the very next calendar year. Must've just absolutely hit a stride completely out of nowhere once 2014 hit.

 

[Dorkman]

Probably Aldo. Max was too young, inexperienced, and unrefined at the time of their fight to be considered his best. And this is no disrespect, because beating Aldo especially the way he did it was a huge win.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Not even top four, his best wins are Aldo, Alvarez, Mendes and Poirier.

 

[textwarrior]

I think it's a great win even at the time. Conor has been Max's only loss for a while. The fight was pure display of domination, something we rarely see when watching his fights.

FW was something else.. what you guys think?

Aldo is his best win, all the others he beat did not have that aura of invincibility. 2nd imo, would be his win in the Diaz rematch. 3rd Dustin at feather weight. Conor could have made allot more money imo if he could have stayed at feather weight but who cares, after he made all that money off Floyd.

 

[Ozze]

Smells like troll thread.

 

[Taric]

I think it's a great win even at the time. Conor has been Max's only loss for a while. The fight was pure display of domination, something we rarely see when watching his fights.

FW was something else.. what you guys think?

Jose Aldo was 15-0 in the UFC/WEC, and the #1 ranked FW for 6 years when Conor defeated him
Max Holloway was 3-2 in the UFC when Conor defeated him

... what is wrong with you people?

 

[StonedLemur]

Aldo was his best win, no doubt. Followed by Eddie and Dustin. Max is a good scalp for sure, but Max was like 14 when Conor beat him.

14 lol.