Is Karate really this useless?

[SummerStriker]

Kyokushin won't prepare you mentally. It breeds fear by training small people to fruitlessly stomp into large men's space and punch them in the chest or fall on the floor after jump kicking them in the arms. If by "prepare mentally" you mean "convince there is no hope" then I agree. The only people who are good at Kyokushin are huge power lifters that can muscle smaller people around.

It is absolutely the most size and strength dependent martial art I've ever seen. It is worse than Wing Chun. At least a WC guy will try to straight blast someone once and then run in a circle around them. People get taught in Kyokushin to die like a man and double down on punching people in the thickest parts of their bodies.

The only reason people think Kyokushin is a good martial art is because the classes are hard. "ok, lets do 100 pushups, punch the wall, then kick each other in the shins without any adrenaline so that we become used to suffering."

 

[The Karate Man]

I've been saying this for years Karate, TKD, and all the other arts that are 500 years old need to modernize their training. There are legit techniques that you can use from every art. We've seen over and over again people that can take the Karate style and be deadly with it... Machida, Raymond Daniels, Wonderboy, etc...

 

[Jack Handy jr]

IT IS IF HE KEEPS PULLING HIS KICKS-

he could have dropped boxer multiple times.

Agree I'm an old shot okay guy and I would have destroyed a straight up boxer

 

[j123]

The only reason people think Kyokushin is a good martial art is because the classes are hard. "ok, lets do 100 pushups, punch the wall, then kick each other in the shins without any adrenaline so that we become used to suffering."

lol, I got a good laugh out of that

 

[Tayski]

Kyokushin won't prepare you mentally. It breeds fear by training small people to fruitlessly stomp into large men's space and punch them in the chest or fall on the floor after jump kicking them in the arms. If by "prepare mentally" you mean "convince there is no hope" then I agree. The only people who are good at Kyokushin are huge power lifters that can muscle smaller people around.

It is absolutely the most size and strength dependent martial art I've ever seen. It is worse than Wing Chun. At least a WC guy will try to straight blast someone once and then run in a circle around them. People get taught in Kyokushin to die like a man and double down on punching people in the thickest parts of their bodies.

The only reason people think Kyokushin is a good martial art is because the classes are hard. "ok, lets do 100 pushups, punch the wall, then kick each other in the shins without any adrenaline so that we become used to suffering."

Can you do us a favour and let people who actually trained and experienced Kyokushin talk about it?
From reading your post I can already tell you've only watched a few youtube videos but not trained it.

 

[SummerStriker]

Can you do us a favour and let people who actually trained and experienced Kyokushin talk about it?
From reading your post I can already tell you've only watched a few youtube videos but not trained it.

Will do, but I stand by what I said.

 

[Tayski]

Will do, but I stand by what I said.

What you said was just a shit on something you don't really know about. You can stand by your shit all you want, hopefully you can handle the smell.

 

[SummerStriker]

What you said was just a shit on something you don't really know about. You can stand by your shit all you want, hopefully you can handle the smell.

I do, and I'm not wrong. Stomping up to people punching them in the chest until their hands drop so you can jump hook kick them is a stupid way to train people for self defense.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

Kyokushin won't prepare you mentally. It breeds fear by training small people to fruitlessly stomp into large men's space and punch them in the chest or fall on the floor after jump kicking them in the arms. If by "prepare mentally" you mean "convince there is no hope" then I agree. The only people who are good at Kyokushin are huge power lifters that can muscle smaller people around.

It is absolutely the most size and strength dependent martial art I've ever seen. It is worse than Wing Chun. At least a WC guy will try to straight blast someone once and then run in a circle around them. People get taught in Kyokushin to die like a man and double down on punching people in the thickest parts of their bodies.

The only reason people think Kyokushin is a good martial art is because the classes are hard. "ok, lets do 100 pushups, punch the wall, then kick each other in the shins without any adrenaline so that we become used to suffering."

You couldn't be more wrong about Kyokushin.

 

[Tayski]

I do, and I'm not wrong. Stomping up to people punching them in the chest until their hands drop so you can jump hook kick them is a stupid way to train people for self defense.

You're talking about one competition format and ruleset called knockdown, and even within knockdown there are variations where grabs and throws are allowed. This is not what Kyokushin is. Please do some research because you're dissing something you clearly don't know about.

ps: even if all a person trains is knockdown competition like what you're referring to, it still gives you great tools for self defence. It's not perfect but it's far better than a lot of martial arts out there.

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

We pay a lot of lip service to legit karate styles but the reality is that Karate and TKD were adapted to ring fighting before most of us were even born. Both American Full Contact as well as Dutch and Japanese kickboxing have roots in traditional martial arts, as does San Shao. I mean, I know theres few things that make you feel as bad ass as a Gi and a Black Belt but why bother to learn one of those styles and then work on adapting it when people have already done that for you?

Kyokushin won't prepare you mentally.

If by mentally you mean strategically then yes but pretty much the best reason to train Kyokushin is mental and physical conditioning, those guys are sadomasochists.

 

[SummerStriker]

If by mentally you mean strategically then yes but pretty much the best reason to train Kyokushin is mental and physical conditioning, those guys are sadomasochists.

I get that "mental toughness" is a marketing point, but I don't believe it. I think they do more to demoralize the smaller people who train it with their lack of strategy than anything else. Worse, the false sense of security that comes from the kinds of conditioning they do leads to a big reality check when they come up against another large person. They are not "tougher" than anyone else who does a combat sport. What they are is used to keeping a straight face when in pain but not under the effects of adrenaline. The failure to teach anything that looks like tactics makes them look tougher, but again, that is just a house of cards.

It is a whole lot of posturing and suffering, and there is some good that comes from the kicking technique and pushups, but still, come the fuck on.

 

[BudoNoah]

Yeah, those are TKD people, and they appear to be the light-contact point fighting type. Admittedly, WAY too many karate people train that way, too. A lot of striking martial arts have decided to tailor themselves to children, since youth students are how martial art schools generally keep their doors open, and that's caused a lot of problems from the "martial" perspective.

As someone who practices an Okinawan style of karate, I'm not terribly fond of a lot of things that Japanese karate systems have done. Shotokan's insistence on using kendo range and nothing but basic block/punch/kick techniques has given the world a very particular idea of what karate should be, that doesn't actually fit with the origins of karate. Kyokushin's insistence on using only punches and kicks at close range in a war of attrition has missed the mark on how karate was intended to be used, as well. Both of them have made changes to the kata based on flawed understanding of how the movements are intended to be used, although Kyokushin's are worse in that regard, and both might as well not even practice kata considering their real focuses are typically more on kihon and kumite.

All that said, there are absolutely good aspects of both of them, and I don't hold anything against those who practice them--I have friends who train both, and I have cross-trained in both. For what their systems do, they do it very well. Shotokan develops an excellent understanding of body mechanics and tactics for fighting at long range. Kyokushin develops strong mental fortitude and physical fitness. People who practice these arts are often dedicated, hard-working martial artists, and I would not disparage them. Just from the perspective of the origin of karate, what they do is not what karate is meant to be. In all fairness, though, most Okinawan martial arts schools out there have lost the essence of what Okinawan karate was meant to be, as well.

When it comes right down to it, there are people in every style who train hard in a realistic manner, and make the most of their system. There are also those in every style who water it down and provide a terrible example of their system. There just happen to be a lot more videos of "fails" than "successes" online

 

[ARIZE]

Shooto is a tournament format - he was already nearly gone coming into the fight - he had already gone the distance with Souwer so was pretty much gone when it came to Buakaw. Though you do have a point but I'd point out that Buakaw has been clinching with boxing gloves since he was a kid - Imada hasn't. He has the advantage here.

Fair.

he doesn't go for a hip throw he goes for an arm throw - seoi nage again -

Sorry about that, i don't know the proper terminology. For me, any throw you turn your back, and you make your opponent fall by using your hip as leverage, was a hip throw. For example, the throws Ronda likes to use some times, by having her hand around the head, turning, and using her hips, is in the same category, as this one, or if he had an under hook on the other arm... Obviously it's a different technique with different names, but in my mind they were all in the same category, hip throws.

I'm in agreement it is underrated as a technique - by that I mean it's not been developed to the extent it can be for sure outside of MT but I think it won't be nearly as prominent as you see in MT.

Fair.

I could have used a better phrase - not my intention to rustle jimmies. Just wanted to point out there are many ways to counter it and that it is not this god like technique - it has its place just like everything else. Of course it's effective - don't think anyone would argue it isn't. I saying it more as a response to a silly post that I encountered in the MT & Kickboxing forum which I thought was pretty stupid.

Fair.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

If by mentally you mean strategically then yes but pretty much the best reason to train Kyokushin is mental and physical conditioning, those guys are sadomasochists.

The most important thing, when it comes to self defense, is mental toughness. Without that, you're as good as done for. And mental toughness is what Kyokushin is all about -- learning to endure, pushing through the pain, never giving up. Technique really is secondary - unnecessary, even, for most people in the majority of situations.

And that's why I'd bet money on anyone from my old Kyokushin dojo doing better in a self defense situation than anyone from any of the self defense focused arts I've done. They have that necessary grit. Whereas the self defense guys... I'd have no faith in them not folding when someone gets aggressive.

Also, as pointed out before, Kyokushin =/= knockdown sparring. Kyokushin has a lot more to offer than just the sparring, and it's actually just one format of sparring, there are dojos out there that spar with head punches and grappling.

None of the smaller people I've seen do Kyokushin have been "demoralized" because of the sparring rules either....

 

[TehGwarch]

It depends heavily on the style of Karate and most importantly the instructor and actual individual. Unfortunately there are a lot of McDojos out there especially in USA.

Also, non full contact Karate styles can be effective as self defence but tend to struggle in full contact sport fights.

However when you start looking at full contact Karate styles especially from the Knockdown family (Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shidokan, Daido Juku / Kudo), you get some seriously tough fighters.

Kyokushin:



Shidokan:



Daido Juku / Kudo:

In the Daido Juko video we see a problem.

Even in the "legit" style, the striking is just crap brawling with no defense or counter attacks, grappling is nothing special either. I don't understand the appeal other than "i wanna be different" or "I'm a weeb".

Anyway lots of KK places are crap Mcdojos now, the problem is the students demand this shit training because they are all weaklings and the school has to stay in business.

Kyokushin is a rough sport, most people don't want to trade full power blows with another human being and the ones that do are interested in MMA.

 

[Tayski]

The most important thing, when it comes to self defense, is mental toughness. Without that, you're as good as done for. And mental toughness is what Kyokushin is all about -- learning to endure, pushing through the pain, never giving up. Technique really is secondary - unnecessary, even, for most people in the majority of situations.

And that's why I'd bet money on anyone from my old Kyokushin dojo doing better in a self defense situation than anyone from any of the self defense focused arts I've done. They have that necessary grit. Whereas the self defense guys... I'd have no faith in them not folding when someone gets aggressive.

Also, as pointed out before, Kyokushin =/= knockdown sparring. Kyokushin has a lot more to offer than just the sparring, and it's actually just one format of sparring, there are dojos out there that spar with head punches and grappling.

None of the smaller people I've seen do Kyokushin have been "demoralized" because of the sparring rules either....

100% agree with this.
I feel most people who are criticising Kyokushin in this thread are thinking of Knockdown only and not the martial art of Kyokushin, and they most probably haven't even tried to train in it themselves.

I could also go on an unfair rant about how boxing is also terrible because bobbing and weaving and standing in the pocket in a street situation would just get you clinched and knee'd or taken down, and that the big boxing gloves give you a massive false sense of security when punching and blocking that you wouldn't have in a real fight.
But that would be complete shit talk as boxing is very effective.

The real issue in my opinion is that this is predominantly an MMA site and forum so most people on here only believe in the fight sports that most of the MMA athletes train for their MMA fights (because they work for the sport of MMA), which are pretty much always boxing, muay thai, wrestling, and BJJ. But this doesn't mean that other arts or fight sports are useless, or cannot be effective in other environments than a cage, or even inside the cage.

People shouldn't criticise wrongly or shit on a martial art until you've at least tried to train in it a couple of times IMO.

 

[Tayski]

In the Daido Juko video we see a problem.

Even in the "legit" style, the striking is just crap brawling with no defense or counter attacks, grappling is nothing special either. I don't understand the appeal other than "i wanna be different" or "I'm a weeb".

Anyway lots of KK places are crap Mcdojos now, the problem is the students demand this shit training because they are all weaklings and the school has to stay in business.

Kyokushin is a rough sport, most people don't want to trade full power blows with another human being and the ones that do are interested in MMA.

@Azam for the Daido Juku part.

Regarding what you say about Kyokushin I guess you're also one of those keyboard youtube warriors who shit on something they haven't even tried and don't know about. Most of the Kyokushin dojos today are not mcdojos, this is true for other styles of Karate but not Kyokushin. I don't know where you got that from.
Also you need to consider that some people might have other objectives in life than just fighting in a cage, and might even be cautious about brain damage.

There are also a lot of good values to be learnt in martial arts like Karate such as respect, discipline, courtesy etc. which are values I still don't see in a lot of MMA gyms today. And I'm talking about seeing it first hand not just making assumptions like a lot of you here.

 

[Tayski]

@shinkyoku I wonder what you think of all this?

 

[Azam]

@BudoNoah I think summed it up very nicely. There are pros & cons to styles - realising & accepting them for what they are is what makes a good martial artist. I've noticed the difference to Budonoah after trying an Okinawan style & comparing it to the Japanese styles of Karate I've tried. There is a difference but I don't think that it's a bad thing. After all Okinawan Karate itself morphed from te, tegumi & southern chinese styles. I still consider all of it Karate - even Kudo without it's kata. Kata itself is far gone in most styles - some of the explanations I hear instructors give for this move or that move - use to make my eyes roll (after when I thought about what they said) because all it would take is some full contact sparring to show how wrong that interpretation is yet they still teach it. I've come across this in all styles of Karate - it was one of the reasons I left KK as the kata/kihon was completely dysfunctional.


Kyokushin as an art for all it's pros & cons - is perfectly fine for self defense against the average joe. What you have a problem with summerstriker is knockdown - fair enough. But it's a sport - sports aren't necessarily designed to be self defense orientated. Every sport MMA, MT, Kickboxing, Boxing included has it's issues but they are specifically geared towards sports. No-one doing knockdown will think to punch someone in the chest multiple times & jump spinning back kick them in the head in a self defense situation. There is a clear separation in Kyokushin between sport of knockdown & self defense.

Kyokushin teaches mental toughness - I can attest to it because it's a trait that Kyokushin trained in me - no other style. It's one of the most important aspects in self-defense & fighting in general. Grit is something that is needed in self defense and Kyokushin teaches it in spades.

In the Daido Juko video we see a problem.

Even in the "legit" style, the striking is just crap brawling with no defense or counter attacks, grappling is nothing special either. I don't understand the appeal other than "i wanna be different" or "I'm a weeb".

Anyway lots of KK places are crap Mcdojos now, the problem is the students demand this shit training because they are all weaklings and the school has to stay in business.

Kyokushin is a rough sport, most people don't want to trade full power blows with another human being and the ones that do are interested in MMA.

Striking in Kudo is very aggressive - so it does look like brawling. But this is because it's self defense orientated - you have 3 mins to finish your opponent.

It's not MMA - not made for entertainment purposes. The goal is to put your opponent down asap.

What Kudo trains is very skilled attack minded fighters - like Hisaki Kato, Adam Khaliev and countless other Kudo fighters that have tried MMA. What it does a poor job of is teaching defense & defensive minded fighters because of the ruleset. Every style has its pros & cons - Kudo is no different.

It might look like crappy brawling to you but striking gets messy and will look like "crappy brawling" when you are allowed to grab the gi & strike/grapple.

In Kudo you have some fighters whose strength is grappling others who's strength is striking - so depends. There are some very good strikers & very good grapplers. Give it a try before you knock it.


Also a lot of KK places are not crap Mcdojos - they are very legit. Try going to a Kyokushin dojo and see for yourself if what you see is crap.