Is Karate really this useless?

[spacetime]

Boxing is completely useless against low kicks. Matches don't last more than a few seconds, or minutes.

 

[freakyfarley]

1) THE Boxer is wearing gloves. Einsteins. Guess what a MASSIVE advantage that is to someone NOT using them. Not just for defence but also offence.

2). The karate guy is not doing karate. There is nothing about his fighting that even closely resembles Karate. Much more like fake, American MCdojo Karate.

It depends heavily on the style of Karate and most importantly the instructor and actual individual. Unfortunately there are a lot of McDojos out there especially in USA.
Non full contact Karate styles tend to struggle in full contact fights. However when you start looking at full contact Karate styles especially from the Knockdown family (Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shidokan, Daido Juku / Kudo), you get some seriously tough fighters.

It's a bit like if you were watching a video of body combat / boxercise and saying that boxing is useless...

Yeah, I would agree that most karate dojos give the sport a bad name.

This video is full contact, no gloves shotokan, has some nice knockouts.



Of course, every sport has its limitations.

 

[CFGroup]

Boxers wrists r wrapped and he's wearing gloves. Go to a good Kyokushin school no gloves or wraps and the Boxer folds from the first friggin leg kick let alone the first roundhouse to the ribs, LOL!

Full contact 4 limbs will always be superior to 2 limbs fighting!

Fucking Americans r so ignorant of any real Karate lineage system!

 

[freaky]

Why are they white belts?

Here's another and I think much higher level against a nobody. Karate guy was super cocky too. God I love this video




And the problem with most of these traditional stand up is that they don't teach you clinch. Once they get inside the pocket its over. That's why boxing and MT beats their ass.

 

[Lamfadha]

Benny the Jet Uriquidez going 20 something minutes with a Thai repeatedly throwing him from the clinch. Fight was interrupted because a fight broke out because Thai's thought Benny was cheating with Judo and Americans thought the Thai was cheating with clinching. The story goes they both thought the rules are different. Chuck Norris got punched by a Thai to start it off as legend goes.



A Kyokushinkai challenge match where they show off where Karate really shines striking into the clinch into takedown! Obviously this man has cross trained Judo with Morote Gari (double leg) but if submissions or GnP were allowed he would have won we can safely say because MMA has shown us what happens. Muay Thai focusing exclusively on stand up and Karate on multiple things means it will be more high level in one area. Think how much better kickboxers are compared to MMA fighters striking.
These challenge matches lead to Kyokushin adding Muay Thai and boxing to their Goju Ryu,Shotokan,Judo,Daito Ryu Aikijutsu mixed style even though they won 2 out of 3.

A american kenpo style (Karate and old school Jiu Jitsu in Benny the Jet) and Kyokushin Karate being as I said a mixed style both showed their effectiveness. Can you kindly stop showing your ignorance?

Also as a general disclaimer yes I used to practice Kyokushin I call myself a Karateka. I am also training in a Muay Thai gym rounding out my clinch and checks because we take what works and apply it. The way I am comparing Karate against Muay Thai isn't to disparage Muay Thai instead it is because it is seen as "the most effective stand up art" by the vast majority of people.

 

[Yodsanan]

This video is full contact, no gloves shotokan, has some nice knockouts.

that ain't full contact. knockouts or hard contact are in no way encouraged in JKA Karate competitions.

 

[freakyfarley]

that ain't full contact. knockouts or hard contact are in no way encouraged in JKA Karate competitions.

They used to be from what I know. Definitely not allowed now.

 

[Azam]

that ain't full contact. knockouts or hard contact are in no way encouraged in JKA Karate competitions.

Of course they aren't encouraged - but full contact is allowed within limits. It's not continuous contact but you are allowed to smack someone with full contact as long as it meets scoring criteria.

What isn't allowed under JKA shotokan is excessive contact - i.e. full continuous contact.

If you land a punch on someone with contact and it happens to knock them out or daze them - it's still counted as ippon. If it's excessive contact i.e. continuous full contact or numerous full contact shots then you're more likely to get disqualified.

What counts as excessive contact is usually up to the judges discretion.

 

[Azam]

Benny the Jet Uriquidez going 20 something minutes with a Thai repeatedly throwing him from the clinch. Fight was interrupted because a fight broke out because Thai's thought Benny was cheating with Judo and Americans thought the Thai was cheating with clinching. The story goes they both thought the rules are different. Chuck Norris got punched by a Thai to start it off as legend goes.

......

Also as a general disclaimer yes I used to practice Kyokushin I call myself a Karateka. I am also training in a Muay Thai gym rounding out my clinch and checks because we take what works and apply it. The way I am comparing Karate against Muay Thai isn't to disparage Muay Thai instead it is because it is seen as "the most effective stand up art" by the vast majority of people.

Kenji Kurosaki was demonstrating Judo more so than Karate - after all he wasn't going to try to go toe & toe with an MT pro fighter when he had not prepared for it - so instead went for the Judo. It was a smart thing to do.

I remember having a discussion with someone in the muay thai forum about the clinch and they were behaving as though the clinch is this unbeatable weapon and insisted even in an open format MT fighters would be unbeatable. Yes it's great but like everything else it has it's pros & cons.

I know first hand because nearly every Kudo session we have - we train throw counters off clinches - literally nearly every session without fail. Imho it's incredibly easy to counter with any number of judo throws especially if the other person has no idea what you're trying to do or has no experience with judo. Kurosaki showed it above and even Imada with a seoi nage variation he used on Buakaw in the 1st min of the 1st round before he got butchered on his feet and could no longer use his judo - much like Kurosaki. Plus I commend those two because it's fucking incredibly hard for me to throw anyone with 8oz boxing gloves on - so much easier to do with mma gloves.

 

[Lamfadha]

Kenji Kurosaki was demonstrating Judo more so than Karate - after all he wasn't going to try to go toe & toe with an MT pro fighter when he had not prepared for it - so instead went for the Judo. It was a smart thing to do.

I remember having a discussion with someone in the muay thai forum about the clinch and they were behaving as though the clinch is this unbeatable weapon and insisted even in an open format MT fighters would be unbeatable. Yes it's great but like everything else it has it's pros & cons.

I know first hand because nearly every Kudo session we have - we train throw counters off clinches - literally nearly every session without fail. Imho it's incredibly easy to counter with any number of judo throws especially if the other person has no idea what you're trying to do or has no experience with judo. Kurosaki showed it above and even Imada with a seoi nage variation he used on Buakaw in the 1st min of the 1st round before he got butchered on his feet and could no longer use his judo - much like Kurosaki. Plus I commend those two because it's fucking incredibly hard for me to throw anyone with 8oz boxing gloves on - so much easier to do with mma gloves.

Agreed.

My main focus was trying to use different old school styles of Karate (more stand up grappling orientated after striking into clinch) to show how Karate isn't just some form of stand up kickboxing with impractical kata.
It seemed like the older Kyokushin guys had a lot more grappling in their Karate instead of how it is today with it almost all standing. But yes your corrections / more context is closer to the truth than my outline.

 

[Azam]

Agreed.

My main focus was trying to use different old school styles of Karate (more stand up grappling orientated after striking into clinch) to show how Karate isn't just some form of stand up kickboxing with impractical kata.
It seemed like the older Kyokushin guys had a lot more grappling in their Karate instead of how it is today with it almost all standing. But yes your corrections / more context is closer to the truth than my outline.

100% - your context was correct just added to it.

Most older Kyokushin fighters/practitioners had the benefit of being Judoka on top of the Karate they learnt - they were more complete fighters. Unfortunately like you said it isn't the case today. Most Kyokushin guys have no clue when it comes to basic grappling and how drastically striking changes when you can get grappled - a lot don't want to acknowledge the problems Kyokushin training has as well - Kudo has its fair share to but everyone accepts it. I learnt the hard way lol.

Our Kancho in Kudo himself was a Kyokushin pracitioner and a Judoka - who later formed Daido Juku Kudo after the little grappling elements Kyokushin originally had in competition got completely stripped out. Kyokushin never really taught extensive grappling from what I've read up on it - just very basic things - even though Oyama probably knew Judo.

Traditional Karate though like you said had a lot more standing grappling in it - in fact if you look at Okinawan styles of Karate they still have the standing grappling aspects. I've posted this video a lot in grappling/karate threads but I'll post it here - it demonstrates some of the standup grappling that existed in Funakoshi's style before it became shotokan:



Karate after all is a combination of Tegumi (okinawan wrestling), Te (okinawan hand fighting) & Fujian kung fu styles - somewhere though after it got to the Japanese mainland all the grappling aspects got lost - my theory is that ww2 & a lot of the knowledgeable students (that would have lead karate forward) passed away during the war & some stopped training altogether. I call it the lost generation.

 

[ARIZE]

I know first hand because nearly every Kudo session we have - we train throw counters off clinches - literally nearly every session without fail. Imho it's incredibly easy to counter with any number of judo throws especially if the other person has no idea what you're trying to do or has no experience with judo.

Quick question: Do you guys train also the "MT clinch" as an offensive tool, or just for the counter? What i want to understand is how good the attacker's clinch is. Because it's not the same to counter something coming from a guy who doesn't know how to use it, and to try to apply it to someone who knows what he is doing. The MT clinch is not just holding someones neck... And i am not even talking about the strikes from it (elbows, knees) but just the posture breaking, the unbalance of the opponent etc...

Americans and Europeans MT practitioners, who go to Thailand to train, are getting schooled by half their size little kids in the clinch...And we are talking about people who train it. So i don't believe people who don't, to have an effective, realistic clinch.

Imagine if a said: It's very easy to counter any judo throws... We train it daily in MT. Yeah ok, but who is doing the judo throw? If its another Nakmuay, it has no value, because he doesn't know the proper techniques, the little details, the variations...


Don't get me wrong, I believe judo counters to MT clinch are effective, but not as easy as you might think, and you might be surprised if you find your self in a "real" MT clinch.

 

[j123]

Quick question: Do you guys train also the "MT clinch" as an offensive tool, or just for the counter? What i want to understand is how good the attacker's clinch is. Because it's not the same to counter something coming from a guy who doesn't know how to use it, and to try to apply it to someone who knows what he is doing. The MT clinch is not just holding someones neck... And i am not even talking about the strikes from it (elbows, knees) but just the posture breaking, the unbalance of the opponent etc...

Americans and Europeans MT practitioners, who go to Thailand to train, are getting schooled buy half their size little kids in the clinch...And we are talking about people who train it. So i don't believe people who don't, to have an effective, realistic clinch.

Imagine if a said: It's very easy to counter any judo throws... We train it daily in MT. Yeah ok, but who is doing the judo throw? If its another Nakmuay, it has no value, because he doesn't know the proper techniques, the little details, the variations...


Don't get me wrong, I believe judo counters to MT clinch are effective, but not as easy as you might think, and you might be surprised if you find your self in a "real" MT clinch.

Agreed with everything you wrote, one thing that came to mind though: kudo practitioners wear a gi, so that might change the dynamic a bit and would explain why he said its "incredibly easy to counter with any number of judo throws". Though "incredibly easy" might be an overstatement.

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

Karate is not useless. You need full-contact sparring to make it effective and of course for MMA you need to combine it with other styles to be a complete fighter (ex. Lyoto Machida and Georges St. Pierre).

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

The Karate guy looks like he is just randomly throwing techniques. No tactics. No Strategy. No Set ups.

 

[Azam]

Quick question: Do you guys train also the "MT clinch" as an offensive tool, or just for the counter? What i want to understand is how good the attacker's clinch is. Because it's not the same to counter something coming from a guy who doesn't know how to use it, and to try to apply it to someone who knows what he is doing. The MT clinch is not just holding someones neck... And i am not even talking about the strikes from it (elbows, knees) but just the posture breaking, the unbalance of the opponent etc...

Americans and Europeans MT practitioners, who go to Thailand to train, are getting schooled buy half their size little kids in the clinch...And we are talking about people who train it. So i don't believe people who don't, to have an effective, realistic clinch.

Imagine if a said: It's very easy to counter any judo throws... We train it daily in MT. Yeah ok, but who is doing the judo throw? If its another Nakmuay, it has no value, because he doesn't know the proper techniques, the little details, the variations...


Don't get me wrong, I believe judo counters to MT clinch are effective, but not as easy as you might think, and you might be surprised if you find your self in a "real" MT clinch.

Agreed with everything you wrote, one thing that came to mind though: kudo practitioners wear a gi, so that might change the dynamic a bit and would explain why he said its "incredibly easy to counter with any number of judo throws". Though "incredibly easy" might be an overstatement.

It is pretty easy to do if the person opposite has no idea what you're doing - it's of course harder to do with someone who has a jist of what you might do. Like if you tried to transition into a clinch and you had no idea what seoi nage was and someone who's drilled that technique as a counter from a clinch - locked in your arm as you go for the clinch - much like Imada did to Buakaw in the 1st min of the 1st round before he got beat to a pulp - if you have no idea what the counter is or no little about the technique/counter - you're going for a tumble:



Just to give you an example - Imada did that with fucking boxing gloves - I have mad respect for the dude because we use small gloves & I can't always pull seoi nage off (I'm new to it of course though but learning).

Well in Kudo because of the gi's - you end up in clinch range throughout especially because the round format for competition in tournaments is 3 mins - so everyone is basically coming at you as you have 3 minutes to score as much as you can & preferably take out your opponent without having to go to an extension. The MT clinch we use in Kudo is a lot cruder admittedly but since it's common we practice counters to clinches of all kinds.

Of course the MT clinch we train from an attack viewpoint won't be as good as a Nak Muay's or a professional thai fighter's - but when you're training a singular sport and have a rule-set where you can't get hip thrown or throw in certain ways from the clinch - you aren't going to look out for those things or know how to deal with them when someone does them. They have a time and a place.

I know what an MT clinch should do - breaking posture in the clinch doesn't prevent someone from going for a fireman's carry or even initiating any hip throw or even reaping you if you try pick up a knee. What I'm saying is when you open up all aspects of standup grappling - the clinch is only one aspect and there are many to contend with - that you don't have to necessarily think about in MT - that is my point.


My point in that post which you partly quoted is that the MT clinch is not this unbeatable thing - I wasn't saying it's useless, on the contrary it's very useful but it is not this god like thing to be feared or this instant advantage bestower - sure it's a great thing to have but it's no advantage over someone who knows throws outside the scope of MT - it has it's pros & cons. I'm not saying the clinch is inferior to judo throws or that judo throws are better - I'm saying that the MT clinch even as complicated/complex as it is can be countered with a number of judo throws - "easily" if your opponent has no idea what you're doing (if you do straight MT you will fall into this bracket unless you know your throws) - slightly harder if your opponent has a jist of what you're doing or harder yet if you do MT & Judo. I mean the seoi nage counter from a clinch initiation isn't rare - it's pretty common but works effectively and if you excel at techniques like these from attempts to initiate clinches - good fucking luck getting past someone like that because they are a nightmare to deal with.

I'm not saying just Judo either but even someone with greco-roman or sambo experience could do the same.


Yes I think it is very effective against the clinch if the other guy has no idea what you're doing - if you're opposite a guy that trains MT & knows judo/sambo etc - then of course it's by no means easy as it levels the playing field - in fact that would be much tougher to deal with from a standup grappling perspective.

 

[ARIZE]

1)

I don't want to start a piss contest between judo/karate/muay thai either...I just like to talk techniques. And we all know that, in the end of the day, it depends on what each fighter had for breakfast.

2)

The MT clinch we use in Kudo is a lot cruder admittedly but since it's common we practice counters to clinches of all kinds.

That's what I wanted to know. Since it's a technique you also use in sparring/fights, that means your judo counter is realistic. Obviously i don't expect the clinch to be as good as a Thai fighter, but there is a huge difference between techniques used in combat situation, and techniques used only for demo... (Hold me like that. No not like that, like that. yes ok good. you ready? i am going to throw you now)

3)

Just to give you an example - Imada did that with fucking boxing gloves

Just to say that the same goes for the MT clinch...A lot harder to control someone with gloves than without.

4)

I know what an MT clinch should do - breaking posture in the clinch doesn't prevent someone from going for a fireman's carry or even initiating any hip throw or even reaping you if you try pick up a knee.

I don't fully agree with that. There is a huge difference between the MT clinch for scoring points, and the MT clinch for self defense. To generalize and make it simple, knees to the body is one of the best way to score points. So in that regard, the clincher doesn't mind having his body near the body of the opponent. He mostly looks to prevent elbows, unbalance him to avoid his knees, and occasionally, if able, to trip him. So he will let him stand tall near him, he wont spend much energy trying to lower the upper body/head. He will make space only to hit harder.
And since the hip throws are illegal, he wont feel the need to clinch in a way that will prevent them.

Now for self defense purpose, the first thing you do when clinching, is make your opponent bend, and don't let him put his hips near yours (jack 2 jack). But also, by having your elbows against his torso, using them as a spring that wont allow him to close the distance and be able to put his arms around your waist for body locks. By having your elbows firmly around his neck and against his upper body, you also prevent the hips throws, since its very difficult for him to rotate, and you don't let his hips be near yours.
Also, you don't let the opponent be in balance, you try to move him from side to side. That make it very difficult for someone to throw a fireman's carry, or shooting for double legs. Now if we also add the knees coming up...

The best time for someone to use a judo counter, is when the clinch is attempted. Once the clinch is locked, it's a lot more difficult.

I don't know if i make my self clear, i find it very hard to explain techniques only by text...

6)

To conclude, I don't say it's not effective, I just want to point out that its not so simple or easy. A good MT clinch for self defense purpose and not just for scoring points, its a lot harder to deal with. But that been said, i think that judo hip throws are the best way to deal with it other than been good in MT your self.



PS: For the Buakaw fight, i don't know what to say, since this technique is illegal, so you don't expect someone to be ready to defend something not supposed to happen. It's like watching Pacquiao throwing a low kick to Mayweathers...
Also, you see 30 seconds later his next attempt is easily stopped, as any other attempt of body control...

 

[Azam]

1)

Just to say that the same goes for the MT clinch...A lot harder to control someone with gloves than without.

True - it's much easier to control without gloves but there is the added benefit of being familiar with using boxing gloves to clinch - judoka or in this case someone like Imada doesn't have that luxury and probably isn't very familiar with using them to throw someone. I've been doing Kudo a year now but if you gave me boxing gloves & asked me to initiate a throw it would be hard - in a way someone doing MT wouldn't find it as hard to clinch because they've been doing it since day 1 if you get me.

4)
I don't fully agree with that. There is a huge difference between the MT clinch for scoring points, and the MT clinch for self defense. To generalize and make it simple, knees to the body is one of the best way to score points. So in that regard, the clincher doesn't mind having his body near the body of the opponent. He mostly looks to prevent elbows, unbalance him to avoid his knees, and occasionally, if able, to trip him. So he will let him stand tall near him, he wont spend much energy trying to lower the upper body/head. He will make space only to hit harder.
And since the hip throws are illegal, he wont feel the need to clinch in a way that will prevent them.

Now for self defense purpose, the first thing you do when clinching, is make your opponent bend, and don't let him put his hips near yours (jack 2 jack). But also, by having your elbows against his torso, using them as a spring that wont allow him to close the distance and be able to put his arms around your waist for body locks. By having your elbows firmly around his neck and against his upper body, you also prevent the hips throws, since its very difficult for him to rotate, and you don't let his hips be near yours.
Also, you don't let the opponent be in balance, you try to move him from side to side. That make it very difficult for someone to throw a fireman's carry, or shooting for double legs. Now if we also add the knees coming up...

The best time for someone to use a judo counter, is when the clinch is attempted. Once the clinch is locked, it's a lot more difficult.

I don't know if i make my self clear, i find it very hard to explain techniques only by text...

That's precisely my point in the bold. Also if you are just familiar with Muay Thai you won't know the signs or entries someone with hip throws or even arm throws will use - so it's easier to throw someone from a clinch like that. It's harder if the person opposite is familiar. That's the point I'm making.

You're describing an ideal situation - one thing I can say from doing the tiny bit of grappling I have done is that no-one will offer up their head/neck (at least not all the guys I've grappled with & if you do they immediately get dominant grip & throw) - of course if you have secured a dominant position then you will be able to do all of the above - that rarely occurs in what little grappling I've done - there is always a battle to get there. Getting into a clinch itself is not as easy as you think especially against a decent grappler because straight away they are either looking to disengage if they prefer to strike or looking to put you off balance or throw or jostle for better position. It's easier to initiate that type of clinch if all you are doing is striking and that's all you have to really worry about.

Even when the clinch is locked in there are still things that you can do - it all depends on the clinchers posture and where your hips are in relation to his.

Yeah it is hard describing tech with words lol. But I get the jist of what you're saying - and I'm not saying the clinch isn't useful it is - that ideal situation above is a good example of the strengths of the clinch - all I'm saying is that it is not this unbeatable thing and there are a lot of counters for it and that it easy to throw someone around if all they have is that clinch. If you have MT & insert any grappling style here in you're repertoire my post really doesn't apply to you - and that would be hard to deal with - if all you have is the clinch then not as much.

I'm not debating or talking about the effectiveness of the clinch - it's well established it's effective. What I'm questioning is this god like quality assigned to the clinch by mainly MT folk as though there aren't answers for it - when there are plenty of answers for dealing with it.

To conclude, I don't say it's not effective, I just want to point out that its not so simple or easy. A good MT clinch for self defense purpose and not just for scoring points, its a lot harder to deal with. But that been said, i think that judo hip throws are the best way to deal with it other than been good in MT your self.

PS: For the Buakaw fight, i don't know what to say, since this technique is illegal, so you don't expect someone to be ready to defend something not supposed to happen. It's like watching Pacquiao throwing a low kick to Mayweathers...
Also, you see 30 seconds later his next attempt is easily stopped, as any other attempt of body control...

Again I'm not saying it's ineffective - I'm saying if that's all you have in your repertoire prepared to get thrown by a competent grappler. I think arm throws are great for attempts to initiate clinches because you do half the work for the throw by giving them your arm.

The Buakaw fight is under shooto rules so it's legal & allowed. The reason Buakaw got thrown like that from an attempt to clinch is because he's pure MT. The subsequent attempts are all stopped because Imada got beaten up on his feet - the same way Kurosaki got beat on his feet in the fight above. It had nothing to do with Buakaw's clinch control - more to do with the fact Imada took too many leg kicks & punches.

 

[ARIZE]

but there is the added benefit of being familiar with using boxing gloves to clinch - judoka or in this case someone like Imada doesn't have that luxury and probably isn't very familiar with using them to throw someone.

Good point, and I agree.

That's precisely my point in the bold...

I agree with most of what you say here, but what I am trying to explain is that: Because something is not used in the matches, doesn't mean it's no trained, and not effective.
(Talking about making the opponent bend his head low, keeping his hips away from yours...). It's not done in matches, because it's a lot more effective and energy saving, to score points using other methods in the clinch. (And because the opponent also knows how to counter it)
But if you train with any Nak mauy, and you have not some good experience in the MT clinch, you will find your waist bend, and your head facing the floor real quick.

The Buakaw fight is under shooto rules so it's legal & allowed.

Ok...(dammit)

But, i will still disagree with:

The subsequent attempts are all stopped because Imada got beaten up on his feet

At 10:15 Imada goes for a body lock, its stuffed and easily transitioned to a MT clinch. At 10:36, he goes for a hip throw from the MT clinch after throwing an uppercut, but again it's stopped. At this point of the fight, I don't agree that Imada was so badly hurt that he wasn't able to use his technique, rather than Buakaw was able to read and use his MT to defend those attempts.




I am not trying to say MT clinch is the answer to all grappling. I don't think it's more effective than judo, or greco/freestyle or other pure grappling arts, but, I really think that the MT clinch is underrated from the grappling community, and can cause a lot of trouble to those people...

I will quote again the first think i quoted from you, that i had problem with:

Imho it's incredibly easy to counter with any number of judo throws especially if the other person has no idea what you're trying to do or has no experience with judo

Specially the : "It's incredibly easy to counter" rustled my jimmies. And that was what i was trying to say... I don't think it's that "incredibly easy"... It's still real to me dammit.

 

[j123]

My point in that post which you partly quoted is that the MT clinch is not this unbeatable thing - I wasn't saying it's useless, on the contrary it's very useful but it is not this god like thing to be feared or this instant advantage bestower - sure it's a great thing to have but it's no advantage over someone who knows throws outside the scope of MT - it has it's pros & cons. I'm not saying the clinch is inferior to judo throws or that judo throws are better - I'm saying that the MT clinch even as complicated/complex as it is can be countered with a number of judo throws - "easily" if your opponent has no idea what you're doing (if you do straight MT you will fall into this bracket unless you know your throws) - slightly harder if your opponent has a jist of what you're doing or harder yet if you do MT & Judo. I mean the seoi nage counter from a clinch initiation isn't rare - it's pretty common but works effectively and if you excel at techniques like these from attempts to initiate clinches - good fucking luck getting past someone like that because they are a nightmare to deal with.

I'm not saying just Judo either but even someone with greco-roman or sambo experience could do the same.


Yes I think it is very effective against the clinch if the other guy has no idea what you're doing - if you're opposite a guy that trains MT & knows judo/sambo etc - then of course it's by no means easy as it levels the playing field - in fact that would be much tougher to deal with from a standup grappling perspective.

I don't know too much about higher stages as I don't watch them much, but from my exp. as a ammy fighter of what I've been through and seen, the clinch is underrated, especially in America. At C and B class, alot of fighters still don't know how it works. There hasn't been enough time drilled in for it. Majority of these competitors are from MMA gyms as that is the bulk of gym demographics these days, and MT clinch is almost non-existent. Most of the fighters have grappling experience prior to striking; Some compete just to get a feel of how to survive and dealing with striking in an event, and it is used as a stepping stone for their transition to MMA. They may list their program as Muay Thai, but in reality its kickboxing.

It is not uncommon to see guys defend the "clinch" by blocking knees with their forearms and not pummel for a better position.
The most common way that they defend with, is trying to bodylock or an illegal trip, and that doesn't do much since its MT and with that exp. level both sides are pressing forward and end up clinching within 20-30sec. Breaking the bodylock is taught early when we learn clinching, so its not difficult to deal with.
The rare cases where the ones that do learn some form of clinching only see the double collar tie. The idea of striking and working from single collar (50-50) is foreign to these gyms, and it does end up being a problem. While they're trying to work to get the double, they're eating elbows, getting spun out out balance (while taking a knee at that, which is worse), etc.

It is also counter intuitive against grapplers, as we know in grappling, the #1 priority is getting underhooks all the time. Having teaching ingrained on the mats, giving up underhooks is counter-intuitive for them.

Its only at the top level, where guys who are really devoted and like Muay Thai, take trips to Thailand to learn more material, that they end up being better on the clinching and MT side of things.

Although it might look like I'm basing American fighters, I'm not. Its just the demographic over there is too much MMA : Muay Thai. While here (Canada), its the opposite. In their defense, their boxing is alot better than ours. While we end up doing better with traditional thai tactics (points, clinching, kicking, taller fighter, etc), our weakness is we lack the boxing programs American gyms have, and the traditional MT guys also lack hands offensively and defensively, unless their gym has a solid program incorporated, which is rare to be honest.