Is grappling useless against a guy who can stand up from every takedown?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Legendary, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. Legendary

    Legendary Ꮥµpǝɹnøʌɐ

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    Let me start off by saying I am not anti BJJ by any means. I in fact LOVE BJJ, however one thing that came to my mind recently is the Derrick Lewis vs Roy Nelson fight. Roy who is a very high level black belt, could not keep derrick down, who is realistically a whitebelt. He even mounted him and Derrick would just post and stand up EVERY TIME. When Marcelo had that MMA fight against the Korean dude, he struggled to get him down and he would just stand-up everytime within seconds of going down. This is a common theme that I see. The point that I am getting is that BJJ is literally useless unless you can actually get it to the ground. I feel that BJJ guys often don't have the physicality of a "fighter" and they seem to burn out when it does not go their way. Anyone else agree? I love grappling, but guys get a false sense of security because they have better technique in PURE BJJ. I have met so many purples who would get destroyed by athletic wrestlers, and could easily just pick them up and slam them unconscious in a "street fight situation".

    If you are a BJJ guy, what steps can you do to match the intensity and strength of a monster wrestler? If you are a powerful guy , what technical steps can you take to avoid the ground?
     
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  2. kpoz12

    kpoz12 The No Life King Platinum Member

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  3. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    I think it goes both ways. Over here there is a lack of wrestling compared to the states, so most of the grapplers here are more BJJers. They shut down in terms of striking. In the ammy circuit, I've seen 3 purples shut down against high level strikers with decent takedown defense.
    I don't feel that this is limited to BJJ, I've seen wrestlers also get shut down by strikers as well. This is in regards to a MMA match. For a pure BJJ grappling match I'm not too sure. Sitting down as soon as the match starts would negate this somewhat.
     
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  4. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

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    Riding is a fundamental grappling skill (that is ignored or underemphasized by almost everyone in contemporary submission grappling).
     
  5. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    How many black beasts are there going around? Of course if you meet such a specimen it would be.s hell to keep him down, Bjj ain't no black magic.

    Regarding Marcelos fight you are wrong, Marcelo had no problem taking down an way more experienced Mma fighter, the problem was the gloves, Marcelo had his back for quite a long time and could t sink the choke because of the big ass gloves, no gloves and that dude was going to sleep in less than a minute, the fight got stopped by a cut, eventhough Marcelo looked just fine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
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  6. Peteyandjia

    Peteyandjia Saku Spring Staff Member Forum Administrator

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    No, grappling is not useless in that scenario. If one is a specialist, there are plenty of submissions that can be executed from a standing or clinch position, as well as rolling leglocks.
     
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  7. Legendary

    Legendary Ꮥµpǝɹnøʌɐ

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    I guess it depends on what you are talking about, but if you are in a "street fight" I would never go for a rolling anything when concrete is involved. How many guys are masters of standing kimuras or armlocks? Aoki?

    Even in MMA, you dont see very many leglocks.
     
  8. Peteyandjia

    Peteyandjia Saku Spring Staff Member Forum Administrator

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    If you are talking about concrete, then takedowns are going to be busting up the person on their back, even if they are good at getting back up.
     
  9. Dogstarman

    Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

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    I thought we were talking mma? So are we going to do another street vs sport thread and why are changing the goal posts?

    Anyway if you are worried about being slammed in a street fight, sometimes there are just stronger dudes out there. Also not all BJJ guys are unathletic weaklings as you made out in your op.

    Here's the thing. The switch from street to sport mentality is small. Every week I do a private session with a couple of other guys. We get our gloves on. We wear our holsters with blue guns and even bring in rubber knives. We do techniques with knives and stuff. We also spar with these things. There are a few small things that you have to adjust.

    Here is another thing. This is all training in a matted room with people I love and wouldn't want to injure. It's all simulated combat. Nothing you do or train for will truly recreate a life or death scenario. You need to make the mental switch and be able to do it. Also, in these life and death situations you will revert to what you know and what happens instinctually. It's not like saying this is the best martial art for the street. It's that training any martial art where you spar on a regular basis will help you immensely on the street, especially against an untrained opponent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  10. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    We need to have a "crazy scenario guiz" thread sticky.
     
  11. The Apostle

    The Apostle Green Belt

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    The closest crossovers are Shields, Askren, and Fitch. In that order. Basically, if Jake Shields gets you down, you ain't getting up nor are you likely to reverse position. We have yet to see a pure bjj guy do this, Maia is damned close though. To be fair, those guys don't have the submission skills that you are seeking.
     
  12. selfcritical

    selfcritical Brown Belt

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    Askren really should at this point though. He's been training with high-level black belts for a while now, and gets to mount in damn near every fight, as well as frequently exposing his opponents back
     
  13. The Apostle

    The Apostle Green Belt

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    I know, it's frustrating as hell. He should be hitting so many sneaky arm chokes, like Tony Ferguson.
     
  14. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    This, it get extremely frustrating to to see "some" bjj guys declare 'jiu-jitsu has already incorporated everything it needs from the other grappling arts and doesn't need anything else". And when people like Firas Zahabi show something with the attitude of riding and keeping someone down who doesn't want to be on the ground. Instead of actually discussing the pros and cons. You get "well so and so bjj doesn't so it obviously means that it's inferior "

    There is an entire science and technique to simply riding and/or pinning an opponent who DOES NOT WANT TO BE ON THE GROUND... not just applying pressure to set up a pass or submission. But to keep your opponent down, how to break them back down, how and when to mat return. How to post actively and the attitude. And it really doesn't mean it's "already been incorporated into bjj" because ONE guy sorta did it in a certain situation.

    A perfect example is Cain Valasquez on the ground. In his fight against Travis Brown, he was able to keep Travis on the ground (someone who stood up on Werdum). Joe Rogan and every other analysis I've seen of Cain calls what he's doing on the ground a "scramble".. no it isn't, it's a basic spiral pressure ride that let's him keep you down even if you're good at escaping and he can punch you.. repeatedly. And even that figure 4 he put on Brown's leg when he had him flattened out on his stomach. It's hard to describe unless you felt it. But it completely locks the bottom guys hip out and he's going nowhere

    My point is. Maybe bjj hasn't already incorporated everything useful
     
  15. Ton

    Ton The master of Potato Plata

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    I have always maintained that BJJ is useless unless you can get someone down on the ground and keep them on the ground. I love wresting (at least what i have learned of it so far) and i believe that the 2 arts compliment each other very well.
     
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  16. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

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    I think the guy who makes the best use of grappling generally in mma right now is actually Jacare, and I'll tell you why.

    Both Askren and Maia have a similar archetype in terms of their style I'd say; many times I've seen them go through the motions like locking up a choke, only to back it off because they don't like it if its not 'Goldilocks'.

    There's a time and place for that attitude but its not when finishing. Maia's game plan I think is better designed, but Jacare has more talent in an underlining sense imo. Particularly, he has better instincts for how to cause damage to his opponent, and I'd say the numbers bear this out: 60 per cent of submissions per fight (not per win, per fight), one of the highest in the ufc, and I think the highest amongst the top fives in any weight class.

    Like to give an example, Jacare and Maia both use the reverse sit to pass half guard, but the difference is you look at Ronnie's last fight against Belfort and he was doing things like dropping his elbow into his neck while advancing position.

    Guys like Shields, Maia, or Askren arnt getting finishes because they don't have the instinct and the procedures for giving the presh and inflicting punishment guys like Souza or Schalles have. If askren learned some tactics and tricks from a guy like Wade, that would fill a hole in his grappling game and I guarantee you you'd start seeing more submissions out of him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  17. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    ...

    throw harder.
     
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  18. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

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    Askren lacks the physical ability to hit hard.
     
  19. n.diazismylife1999

    n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

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    "Is striking useless against a guy who can dodge every punch and kick?"

    I mean, yeah, if someone can just stand up every time you get them down, then obviously you can't grapple them, but that's not the fault of "grappling" but a fault of yours.
     
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  20. Nnedd

    Nnedd Centaur Booty Belt

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    Has anyone mentioned the presh yet?

    I feel like the presh should have been mentioned already.
     
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