Is Gentrification a Bad Thing?

[cincymma79]

I said your comments are dumb because you intentionally and repeatedly ignored what I stated whilst repeating yourself. I'm not even addressing your attempt to salvage that trainwreck of a sequence. I'm just repeatedly reminding you just how stupid your posts were. Especially when they culminated in you trying to play a morality card by agreeing with something I'd already said.

So please keep repeating the same thing that ignores every actual response I typed so I can keep pointing out just imbecilic your schtick is.

You said it breaks up the community. I say it isn’t a community. I also think breaking up ghettos is good.

 

[aus101]

Inner city areas are usually the decent areas bit surprised inner city means rundown poverty in America.

It’s because they have space to sprawl. Europe, Asia, space is at a premium in cities.

 

[gannima]

I would actually argue that integration does not really mean the same thing when we are talking about "the black ghetto" and "fresh off the boat" immigrants. Both are minority populations, but the similarities really end there. Integration in the classical sense of the word works absolutely great for the "fresh off the boat" immigrants, with the notable exception of Latin American populations. In certain places in the country, it's very common to have neighborhoods that speak almost exclusively Spanish. Obviously, the closer you are to the Mexican border or to places of refuge for Cubans in Florida, the more likely you will see that. Ignoring that exception, generally, integrating those people into the community, getting their kids into English-speaking schools, etc. effectively does the trick. In that sense, gentrification can totally work.

When speaking to the "black ghettos," what you are really talking about is an established American subculture that exists independently of the larger American culture. In that sense, the word gentrification is really talking about trying to absorb those people into the larger American culture, or, as some might view, swallow that culture up. Whether or not it should happen is a separate debate. So in that sense, gentrification doesn't work because it's trying to address two problems with the same approach. What you would need to do is alter the subculture to make it more compatible with the larger culture, or you would need to persuade people from that subculture to abandon it in exchange for being a part of the larger culture. In that sense, gentrification doesn't really work because you're just redrawing boundaries without really addressing cultural differences or values.

The problem isn't blacks not wanting to integrate into American culture. Despite the fact that many of us live in segregated communities we all are very familiar with the dominant white culture and are quite adept at navigating through it when we need to. We have what D.E.B. Dubois calls double consciousness; we are american and we are black.

Outside of fringe groups like those crazy hotep dudes you don't see too many black people not wanting to be apart of American culture. It just doesn't want us.

But that is really a whole other discussion worthy of its own thread and Im kinda rambling at this point.

 

[HIMBOB]

Sure, the construction of new property and higher resale prices often leads a municipality to up property tax rates. For older residents on fixed incomes, even a mild increase to their property taxes can make a large difference to their quality of living.

Additionally, for some communities, the renters and the owners have been neighbors for decades. When the renters leave, it breaks down the community ties. The new owners are often not inclined to replace the old bonds that held the old community together. For the remaining homeowners, this loss of community can be keenly felt. It's not an economic loss but a social one.

The property taxes issue is easily solved. Equity loan against the now substantially more valuable property. Simple. Home owner is a net winner, massively so.


Renters moving is a separate issue. Sure long term tenants may be forced out through increased rents but while they stay the get increased amenity and further good long term tenants are what every landlord wants and if looking long term they are worth taking a small loss for each month. A simple change of tenant can cost 10% of the yearly income. A bad tenant can cost.....how long is a piece of string.

 

[Strychnine]

This really fits the thread...
Trust me.

 

[Vagitarian]

It's shit. In NYC I see so many people being displaced. I walked down chinatown and I couldn't even recognize it. Much of the culture is lost and what made the city unique is unfortunately gone. It just becomes plastic. Though i guess there's isn't much I can do

 

[sub_thug]

The problem isn't blacks not wanting to integrate into American culture. Despite the fact that many of us live in segregated communities we all are very familiar with the dominant white culture and are quite adept at navigating through it when we need to. We have what D.E.B. Dubois calls double consciousness; we are american and we are black.

Outside of fringe groups like those crazy hotep dudes you don't see too many black people not wanting to be apart of American culture. It just doesn't want us.

But that is really a whole other discussion worthy of its own thread and Im kinda rambling at this point.

I wouldn't say that there is a desire to keep blacks out of American culture. Not on any large scale really, as there will always be a few bubbas who will want to "go back to the way things were." But they really are a small minority of the population, although those voices are oddly some of the loudest (I honestly blame the media for this, as they allow any moron to get TV time).

Speaking of the double consciousness thing, it's really interesting. While I can't say this with certainty, what I would guess is the general feeling among white conservatives (and probably some minority conservatives who have adopted this line of thinking) is that this double consciousness doesn't need to exist. The idea is that all of us should simply be American without regard to race, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. I think that's why Morgan Freeman was applauded by many conservatives when he said that Black History Month shouldn't exist, as black history is inclusive in American history. To study one is to study the other.

What appears to me is that distinct sections of black communities in America don't trust the institutions established within the US by whites. Some are governmental in nature (law enforcement the best examples of this), while others are financial (I don't personally know any black people that distrust banks, but I was told on this forum by a few left-leaning posters that this is an issue in black communities, particularly the most destitute ones), and still others are largely social (evidenced by the desire to establish black churches, colleges and fraternities/sororities, and general centers of communities that work to represent black interests outside of formalized government institutions). Why do you think this is? I apologize in advance if this seems combative at all, as my goal is merely to understand. My personally-held view is that race is a really dumb thing to be fighting over in 2018. As a military guy, I work with men of all colors and creeds, and the requirements of the field necessitate that I have the best, most capable people possible next to me because our lives might depend on it. As such, a little open-mindedness could be life-saving. I don't care if you are a gay black Jewish person who wears a dress on the weekends and asks people to call you Nancy. At the same time, I don't care if you are a heterosexual white Christian who spends every Saturday and Sunday at church. If you can do your job and work well with the rest of the team, that's all that should matter at all. My goal is to live in a color-blind society as quickly as possible so that we can quit talking about details that I don't think really matter. But that's my view. What's yours?

 

[panamaican]

The property taxes issue is easily solved. Equity loan against the now substantially more valuable property. Simple. Home owner is a net winner, massively so.


Renters moving is a separate issue. Sure long term tenants may be forced out through increased rents but while they stay the get increased amenity and further good long term tenants are what every landlord wants and if looking long term they are worth taking a small loss for each month. A simple change of tenant can cost 10% of the yearly income. A bad tenant can cost.....how long is a piece of string.

No offense but there's a lack of real estate knowledge in play here.

Equity isn't liquid. You don't pay property taxes in equity, you pay it in cash. So an increased property value doesn't mean much if you can't afford a higher property tax rate. And some of you might be overstating the increase in value that gentrification brings to existing homeowners.

Maybe people just don't understand how gentrification actually works. Gentrification is when people buy inexpensive houses and then put the money into upgrading the properties. So instead of buying a $300k house, you buy a $100k house and drop another $150k into renovating it. That is what drives up the property value - the value of the improvements

Let's say you're talking about a neighborhood where the average home price is $50-$100k. When that neighborhood gets gentrified, the new homes might go for $200-$300k after improvements. But the old homes aren't going to get those rates without significant investment in the properties to bring them up to the standards of the new homes. The existing homeowners often do not have the cash or ability to invest in their homes to that degree. So when their property taxes go up, they can't really afford the new expense. But they also can't afford to improve their homes to get the same rate as the new homes.

So, no, the old homeowner is not massively winning because the old homeowner isn't getting the same increase in value for their old homes as for the renovated homes or new construction.

Your paragraph about the renters is about the issue of the renters relative to their landlords. My comment was about the relationship between the renters and the other homeowners who are not the landlords. The overall community relationship, not the business one (since the landlords don't often live in the same communities where they are renting out).

 

[panamaican]

You said it breaks up the community. I say it isn’t a community. I also think breaking up ghettos is good.

And I said, you continue to struggle with the idea that not everyone is a renter. There are homeowners. You also seem to have some very poor idea that this is happening in ghettos. It isn't. It happens in lower class and lower middle class neighborhoods.

The more I type in this thread, the more obvious it is that you have no idea how the real estate market is working in urban environments. Since I'm a real estate and business attorney and own a real estate title insurance agency in a major city, I'll try to fill in your obvious experience gaps.

Here's a really quick crash course - gentrification does not take place in ghettos. As urban living has increased in attractiveness, the attractiveness of homes near public transportation, shopping, schools and city jobs has increased as well. These homes are often near the heart of large institutions - colleges, government buildings, hospitals, etc. These areas always had decent homeownership rates but the home prices were depressed relative to the suburbs.

No one is gentrifying the ghettos because the ghettos are not close to the jobs. Low income neighborhoods can have decent home ownership rates because the homes themselves are much cheaper. See my earlier post to someone else about the economics of gentrification, which is very different from the pie in the sky version that gets peddled around.

Maybe people just don't understand how gentrification actually works. Gentrification is when people buy inexpensive houses and then put the money into upgrading the properties. So instead of buying a $300k house, you buy a $100k house and drop another $150k into renovating it. That is what drives up the property value - the value of the improvements.

Let's say you're talking about a neighborhood where the average home price is $50-$100k. When that neighborhood gets gentrified, the new homes might go for $200-$300k after improvements. But the old homes aren't going to get those rates without significant investment in the properties to bring them up to the standards of the new homes. The existing homeowners often do not have the cash or ability to invest in their homes to that degree. So when their property taxes go up, they can't really afford the new expense. But they also can't afford to improve their homes to get the same rate as the new homes.

So for the existing homeowners in lower class neighborhoods, the impact of gentrification can be detrimental. Their property taxes have gone up but because their homes are old and in mediocre condition, they are not the economic equivalent of the newer properties. Hence some of them struggle with the new tax costs but selling their homes wouldn't get enough money to allow them to move to an equivalent neighborhood somewhere else.

Please tell me you understand the economics of the above explanation before I can start taking you seriously again.

 

[panamaican]

What appears to me is that distinct sections of black communities in America don't trust the institutions established within the US by whites. Some are governmental in nature (law enforcement the best examples of this), while others are financial (I don't personally know any black people that distrust banks, but I was told on this forum by a few left-leaning posters that this is an issue in black communities, particularly the most destitute ones), and still others are largely social (evidenced by the desire to establish black churches, colleges and fraternities/sororities, and general centers of communities that work to represent black interests outside of formalized government institutions). Why do you think this is?

They don't trust the institutions because the institutions were used to harm them and their communities.

For those of us who were not part of the black American experience going back 2-3 generations, it's very easy to forget that the racists and such used the institutions of government to enforce their will. They used cops to harass blacks (keep them in line socially) or they used the judicial system to deny them justice when they were wronged (the Emmitt Till case being a popular example).

They conducted dangerous experiments on them without their consent, such as the Tuskegee syphilis experiments. Black America swore that the government was behind the increased presence of drugs in their neighborhoods for years and no one believed them until it came out almost a decade later. The government legally prevented them from competing economically.

The U.S. government and it's institutions fucked black America for a long time, it's not surprising that it created mistrust. You don't get that same mistrust from recent black immigrants because that historical component isn't part of their collective history. But multigeneration black Americans have these types of stories and experiences passed down from one generation to the next.

 

[sub_thug]

They don't trust the institutions because the institutions were used to harm them and their communities.

For those of us who were not part of the black American experience going back 2-3 generations, it's very easy to forget that the racists and such used the institutions of government to enforce their will. They used cops to harass blacks (keep them in line socially) or they used the judicial system to deny them justice when they were wronged (the Emmitt Till case being a popular example).

They conducted dangerous experiments on them without their consent, such as the Tuskegee syphilis experiments. Black America swore that the government was behind the increased presence of drugs in their neighborhoods for years and no one believed them until it came out almost a decade later. The government legally prevented them from competing economically.

The U.S. government and it's institutions fucked black America for a long time, it's not surprising that it created mistrust. You don't get that same mistrust from recent black immigrants because that historical component isn't part of their collective history. But multigeneration black Americans have these types of stories and experiences passed down from one generation to the next.

On the other hand, it's also worth noting that there is an echo chamber effect happening. I will use my wife's company for example. For those black Americans who have put aside mistrusts based on previous generations (rightly or wrongly), they have been whole-heartedly accepted as equal members of the organization, getting jobs making $50K-140K per year, getting good homes in good neighborhoods, access to good schools, etc. Trust is definitely rewarded. For those that resist joining the party, they are surrounded by others who reject jumping into the larger society, and they aren't helping themselves by holding onto these beliefs. What myself and other non-racists suggesting is to jump on in and share in all this success. There is more than enough to go around, and we all win. At this point, we do a pretty good job of not holding one another down, but we still do a poor job of not holding ourselves down.

 

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Great strategy. Infest a neighborhood with drugs and booze, sit back and watch it go to shits.....swoop in and takeover when said hood is just that.

Reminds me of other moments in human history....

 

[cincymma79]

And I said, you continue to struggle with the idea that not everyone is a renter. There are homeowners. You also seem to have some very poor idea that this is happening in ghettos. It isn't. It happens in lower class and lower middle class neighborhoods.

The more I type in this thread, the more obvious it is that you have no idea how the real estate market is working in urban environments. Since I'm a real estate and business attorney and own a real estate title insurance agency in a major city, I'll try to fill in your obvious experience gaps.

Here's a really quick crash course - gentrification does not take place in ghettos. As urban living has increased in attractiveness, the attractiveness of homes near public transportation, shopping, schools and city jobs has increased as well. These homes are often near the heart of large institutions - colleges, government buildings, hospitals, etc. These areas always had decent homeownership rates but the home prices were depressed relative to the suburbs.

No one is gentrifying the ghettos because the ghettos are not close to the jobs. Low income neighborhoods can have decent home ownership rates because the homes themselves are much cheaper. See my earlier post to someone else about the economics of gentrification, which is very different from the pie in the sky version that gets peddled around.



So for the existing homeowners in lower class neighborhoods, the impact of gentrification can be detrimental. Their property taxes have gone up but because their homes are old and in mediocre condition, they are not the economic equivalent of the newer properties. Hence some of them struggle with the new tax costs but selling their homes wouldn't get enough money to allow them to move to an equivalent neighborhood somewhere else.

Please tell me you understand the economics of the above explanation before I can start taking you seriously again.

i own a rental in an urban neighborhood and did the same in newport when it got revitalized. I have seen this work. the people in newport who sold their homes moved one town over and a fair number of them got paid of mortgages on their new homes or a significant down payment. they now live one or two towns over depending where they moved and in what direction. this is actively happening right around me, though i live in the "rich" part now. the rental i have now is right on the main road they are talking of widening for highway access and the new high end condos going up by the river. i'm buying a duplex down on the other side of the developments. only a matter of time before those get bought up. some of these owners got wise and rented out their homes to the people moving to the area. so i am actively following it and making money off of it. i got it.

 

[panamaican]

On the other hand, it's also worth noting that there is an echo chamber effect happening. I will use my wife's company for example. For those black Americans who have put aside mistrusts based on previous generations (rightly or wrongly), they have been whole-heartedly accepted as equal members of the organization, getting jobs making $50K-140K per year, getting good homes in good neighborhoods, access to good schools, etc. Trust is definitely rewarded. For those that resist joining the party, they are surrounded by others who reject jumping into the larger society, and they aren't helping themselves by holding onto these beliefs. What myself and other non-racists suggesting is to jump on in and share in all this success. There is more than enough to go around, and we all win. At this point, we do a pretty good job of not holding one another down, but we still do a poor job of not holding ourselves down.

I would disagree only because a significant body of research suggests they are not being equally rewarded. Relevant to your example of the workplace is the oft quoted research that indicates that resumes with black names are less likely to get job callbacks than resumes with white names. So while many black Americans are reaping rewards, there's still a large component who are not being rewarded for their trust or their efforts because of racial hang ups. I mean how pissed would you be if you knew that the name your parents gave you would play a role in your ability to get a job, regardless of your qualifications? That would suggest that the trust isn't being rewarded.

This political cycle has not been reassuring to black America. We have various politicians stating outright racist statements about black America, such as that one guy who said that black people have a genetic predisposition to becoming criminals after using marijuana (I might have that quote slightly off).

The oft-repeated rhetoric about lazy, unintelligent black people doesn't build trust.

So while you and other non-racists can say jump on and share in the success, you don't control the institutions either. You share control of those institutions with people who still harbor racist attitudes. Black Americans will continue to try and improve their situation but so long as the institutions are still being directed by individuals who harbor such mindsets, it's hard to say they should "trust" the institutions.

If a man betrays you repeatedly, you're not going to start trusting him just because he says "Look, I've got a new partner and he won't betray you." Well, unless the guy who betrayed you cedes control to the new partner, you're going to need some assurances because "I promise it won't happen again" isn't going to cut it.

You know this - building trust is hard, a lot harder than breaking it. And rebuilding it is even harder.

 

[panamaican]

i own a rental in an urban neighborhood and did the same in newport when it got revitalized. I have seen this work. the people in newport who sold their homes moved one town over and a fair number of them got paid of mortgages on their new homes or a significant down payment. they now live one or two towns over depending where they moved and in what direction. this is actively happening right around me, though i live in the "rich" part now. the rental i have now is right on the main road they are talking of widening for highway access and the new high end condos going up by the river. i'm buying a duplex down on the other side of the developments. only a matter of time before those get bought up. some of these owners got wise and rented out their homes to the people moving to the area. so i am actively following it and making money off of it. i got it.

Right so you didn't live in the neighborhood and weren't part of the community. And you know that these aren't ghettos. And you know that the properties being sold are not being sold at rates equal to the new construction or renovated properties. They are being sold at slight premiums over their previous valuations. So not massive icnreases in value.

People are moving 1 or 2 towns over because they can no longer afford to live in their old communities. Now go back to my earlier comment about the people who see their communities broken up.

I'll say this, I'm glad you dropped the dumbass comments and actually added something of value to your posting.

 

[cincymma79]

Right so you didn't live in the neighborhood and weren't part of the community. And you know that these aren't ghettos. And you know that the properties being sold are not being sold at rates equal to the new construction or renovated properties. They are being sold at slight premiums over their previous valuations. So not massive icnreases in value.

People are moving 1 or 2 towns over because they can no longer afford to live in their old communities. Now go back to my earlier comment about the people who see their communities broken up.

I'll say this, I'm glad you dropped the dumbass comments and actually added something of value to your posting.

i lived in the urban rental for a few years while getting money together to make these moves. i still don't agree with the premise that it hurt them. it didn't. a lot of them benefited from it quite a bit. i made a little more and will make more later of course

 

[panamaican]

i lived in the urban rental for a few years while getting money together to make these moves. i still don't agree with the premise that it hurt them. it didn't. a lot of them benefited from it quite a bit. i made a little more and will make more later of course

You might not agree with the premise but that's not because the premise is untrue. Plenty of homeowners complain about the effect of gentrification on their communities. Your indifference to their complaints isn't the same as their complaints being invalid. Foundational to this is that no one ever said that everyone suffers or everyone benefits, some can benefit while others suffer.

 

[cincymma79]

You might not agree with the premise but that's not because the premise is untrue. Plenty of homeowners complain about the effect of gentrification on their communities. Your indifference to their complaints isn't the same as their complaints being invalid. Foundational to this is that no one ever said that everyone suffers or everyone benefits, some can benefit while others suffer.

maybe it's my time in the military or my upbringing, but i don't subscribe to the born here die here bs. if you offered me 50000 more than my home's value i'd tke it today...unless i thought i could get more. this is how money is made

 

[panamaican]

maybe it's my time in the military or my upbringing, but i don't subscribe to the born here die here bs. if you offered me 50000 more than my home's value i'd tke it today...unless i thought i could get more. this is how money is made

Then you have a narrow understanding of how money is made. Or you value money over sense of community. Or you're too short term in your thinking. If you're on a fixed income and your house is paid off, a one time minimal premium on the sale of your home is of limited value in the long term, especially if the cost of a new home eats up a portion of the sales premium and/or you have to spend more money to retain access to things you previously enjoyed.

 

[cincymma79]

Then you have a narrow understanding of how money is made. Or you value money over sense of community. Or you're too short term in your thinking. If you're on a fixed income and your house is paid off, a one time minimal premium on the sale of your home is of limited value in the long term, especially if the cost of a new home eats up a portion of the sales premium and/or you have to spend more money to retain access to things you previously enjoyed.

in today's world you can do all the research you need from your phone. you'll be fine. you may have to drive an extra five minutes though. a house is just a house and i'd be shocked if 99% of people actually knew even half their neighbors