Is debating pointless?

[Pugilistic]

A while ago, I was reading this book written by an American professor that tried to explain the differences between western and eastern societies. Overall the book is poorly written and the author doesn't support his arguments very well, but he made some observations that made me think. Having lived in both the US and Korea, I could see some of the observations the author made as well.

One of the points he brings up is that the "west" is steeped in the tradition of debate and logic, where people try to find the truth, while in the "east," harmony is more important rather than finding out who is right and who is wrong. It's something you could see even to this day. Growing up in the US, I had many debates and discussions with friends and other students over social and political issues. While with Koreans, it's almost never. Koreans only argue if it's on the internet.

I used to think the "eastern" way of doing things is clearly bullshit. But the older I get I'm starting it really doesn't matter. At the national level, I still think the spirit of debate is important. I think things could change faster if people actually talked about it in the first place. But for me personally, I don't see the point in debating or arguing with people over issues.

It's not like people ever get convinced by the other side. It seems to me most people just leave the debate feeling defensive if they're the loser, while the winner just feels good about himself. Not to mention most people don't know how to debate logically and get too emotionally attached to their position. You see debates on this forum all the time about various issues and the same posters are always on the side of the argument they've always been on. And it's not like me winning a debate over a social issue against a poster or a friend is going to bring about change.

It just makes me think, what's the point? I'd rather now just shoot the shit and crack jokes. If someone makes an interesting point I try to listen and ask questions. But I don't try to argue with them or try to win debates anymore. For example if I see a post I disagree with, I'll start to write a counter-argument then start to think, 'Wait, I am I spending this much time trying to convince this random dude on the internet that he's wrong? He probably won't get convinced anyway and I'll just end up getting sucked into a drawn-out debate." It feels like a waste of time and energy nowadays.

Anybody else feel the same?

 

[BisexualMMA]

I certainly feel that way about politics these days.

 

[Cheese]

Its about being Right.


I am Not trying to change your mind. I am trying convice everyone I am right and you are wrong. Who gets control of the people.

 

[VulcanNervPinch]

In general, I think discussing/debating issues is tremendously important.

However,

• Agreed that most people suck at conversing/debating. They make up their mind in advance, based on emotion or poor information, twist and cherry-pick facts to defend their position, often misunderstand or misrepresent, and rarely reconsider their position when presented with important new information.
• The value of spending an hour writing a good response to someone who will probably disregard what you say, however correct or well stated is certainly dubious sometimes. Even more so when there's a solid possibility the person is just a douchebag troll.

 

[Nameless Ghoul]

I think except for rare cases it is. Most people aren't willing to even listen to new ideas, let alone admit they may be wrong or even potentially change their minds on anything. In the end a potential learning moment turns into WW3 with both sides fighting tooth and nail over something they may not even have totally believed in in the first place.

 

[Hidden_Hand]

In reality yes, it is and it is because humans have a unique and retarded ability and that is the ability to convince ourselves something is right or true no matter what.

Even things with no evidence like 'Flat Earth Theory' where there is actually zero evidence the earth is flat and 100% evidence the earth is round but yet people fight to the death the earth is flat..

I watched a documentary on police interrogations and one of the police interrogators had been doing it years and he said the most amazing thing about humans was how we lie to ourselves and believe it, he said to the effect of 'I have had guys who genuinely believe they are innocent or didn't do the crime even though we know they did and they will entirely convince themself they are innocent to the point their brain kind of erases what happened'

So debating is just going round in circles really, the other person will always just think 'what an idiot' even if you are right.

In theory however debating should be beneficial to one party especially if you show them evidence and truth but having grown up around religious people, I realised along time ago some people don't actually want truth or evidence.

Debating on things like sports and movies can be fun, but religion, politics, guns etc. is a no go.

 

[Robocok]

Yes, sometimes I imagine people as talking faces on a wall all trying to explain why their opinion is more important than the other but it all sounds like blah blah gibberish and life is too short to spend too much energy arguing about things that you have no control over.

That said, sometimes I argue anyways because I feel like I need to tell someone else that they're wrong. I think it can be beneficial to a point to engage in debate depending on what you value. It can be a form of mental exercise to defend and explain what you believe and why but ignorance is bliss too. Kind of like martial arts training, sparring, and physical exercise. Why train to fight when someone can use a gun? You can't really change much with fight skills. You can exercise to stay healthy but some day you won't be healthy and will die anyway.

It reminds me of this line from Dances with Wolves "I pushed him as far as I could to move the camp. But in the end, he only smiled and talked of simple pleasures. He reminded me that at his age, a good fire was better than anything."

 

[Fluffernutter]

Maybe

 

[Phr3121]

Anybody else feel the same?

No. I think debating is very healthy. It makes you think about what you really believe in and why. It strengthens your views or it may even make you change your point of view. I think debating is one of the major reasons science has advanced by leaps and bounds. Do you think folks in the Manhattan Project (Atom Bomb), the Apollo Program, and Microsoft sat around nodding their heads at issues that crept up?

The American founding fathers sure debated a lot with each other, hence the Constitution of the United States.

Also, it depends on the situation and the topic. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut, specially when dealing with idiots. Asians also have this thing where they don't stare each other in the eye when talking. Again, a cultural issue. Had the Japanese debated a little before attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor, maybe they would not have been nuked at the end of WWII.

Don't know what happened to our debate section here on Sherdog. The one on the American Civil War was great. Actually, to me, it was one of the best threads here on Sherdog. The best debaters are those who are able to clearly debate/argue both sides of an issue.

@Limbo Pete

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Intelligent, respectful debate is good, it presents cases for other observers to decide.

It also helps those debating figure some things out for themselves, forces them to delve deeper than would be possible by just thinking to themselves.

It's a necessary process for the further development of thought and understanding.

 

[Philo-Publius]

A while ago, I was reading this book written by an American professor that tried to explain the differences between western and eastern societies. Overall the book is poorly written and the author doesn't support his arguments very well, but he made some observations that made me think. Having lived in both the US and Korea, I could see some of the observations the author made as well.

One of the points he brings up is that the "west" is steeped in the tradition of debate and logic, where people try to find the truth, while in the "east," harmony is more important rather than finding out who is right and who is wrong. It's something you could see even to this day. Growing up in the US, I had many debates and discussions with friends and other students over social and political issues. While with Koreans, it's almost never. Koreans only argue if it's on the internet.

I used to think the "eastern" way of doing things is clearly bullshit. But the older I get I'm starting it really doesn't matter. At the national level, I still think the spirit of debate is important. I think things could change faster if people actually talked about it in the first place. But for me personally, I don't see the point in debating or arguing with people over issues.

It's not like people ever get convinced by the other side. It seems to me most people just leave the debate feeling defensive if they're the loser, while the winner just feels good about himself. Not to mention most people don't know how to debate logically and get too emotionally attached to their position. You see debates on this forum all the time about various issues and the same posters are always on the side of the argument they've always been on. And it's not like me winning a debate over a social issue against a poster or a friend is going to bring about change.

It just makes me think, what's the point? I'd rather now just shoot the shit and crack jokes. If someone makes an interesting point I try to listen and ask questions. But I don't try to argue with them or try to win debates anymore. For example if I see a post I disagree with, I'll start to write a counter-argument then start to think, 'Wait, I am I spending this much time trying to convince this random dude on the internet that he's wrong? He probably won't get convinced anyway and I'll just end up getting sucked into a drawn-out debate." It feels like a waste of time and energy nowadays.

Anybody else feel the same?

If you're talking about politics, I think most of us are naturally carved up in to two sides (left and right) primarily due to a combination of genetics and social conditioning. It's very hard to recondition someone who has already been shaped to be the person they are through a lifetime of conditioning and the DNA they were born with. At the same time, there are always a few impressionable people out there who have not yet found solid ground. Flaming those people and calling them names is less likely to make them see your point of view than reasoning with them.

I agree though, it is a lot of energy spent just to find a few impressionable people among a mass of people that are predetermined to see the world through their own prism. You really have to enjoy bickering to get into political debates often. Debating does exercise your brain though, and you learn in the process.

 

[loyalyolayal]

A while ago, I was reading this book written by an American professor that tried to explain the differences between western and eastern societies. Overall the book is poorly written and the author doesn't support his arguments very well, but he made some observations that made me think. Having lived in both the US and Korea, I could see some of the observations the author made as well.

One of the points he brings up is that the "west" is steeped in the tradition of debate and logic, where people try to find the truth, while in the "east," harmony is more important rather than finding out who is right and who is wrong. It's something you could see even to this day. Growing up in the US, I had many debates and discussions with friends and other students over social and political issues. While with Koreans, it's almost never. Koreans only argue if it's on the internet.

I used to think the "eastern" way of doing things is clearly bullshit. But the older I get I'm starting it really doesn't matter. At the national level, I still think the spirit of debate is important. I think things could change faster if people actually talked about it in the first place. But for me personally, I don't see the point in debating or arguing with people over issues.

It's not like people ever get convinced by the other side. It seems to me most people just leave the debate feeling defensive if they're the loser, while the winner just feels good about himself. Not to mention most people don't know how to debate logically and get too emotionally attached to their position. You see debates on this forum all the time about various issues and the same posters are always on the side of the argument they've always been on. And it's not like me winning a debate over a social issue against a poster or a friend is going to bring about change.

It just makes me think, what's the point? I'd rather now just shoot the shit and crack jokes. If someone makes an interesting point I try to listen and ask questions. But I don't try to argue with them or try to win debates anymore. For example if I see a post I disagree with, I'll start to write a counter-argument then start to think, 'Wait, I am I spending this much time trying to convince this random dude on the internet that he's wrong? He probably won't get convinced anyway and I'll just end up getting sucked into a drawn-out debate." It feels like a waste of time and energy nowadays.

Anybody else feel the same?

I still lean towards western on your breakdown. Debates(some) presents an intellectual darwinian aspect as opposed to eastern(based on your post). It feels like breeding complacency that's why commies still has a stranglehold on commie asian countries.

 

[TeTe]

It's usually is a waste of time. It doesn't bother me so much to do it with an intelligent person to maybe learn a thing or two but I look at it as more of a discussion than anything, even if we don't agree.

But so many people do it just to be "right" or get in the last word or maybe even go as far to forcefully convince me of something and I can't fucking tolerate people like that.

 

[Phr3121]

 

[Deleted member 220895]

And it's not like me winning a debate over a social issue against a poster or a friend is going to bring about change... I'd rather now just shoot the shit and crack jokes. If someone makes an interesting point I try to listen and ask questions. But I don't try to argue with them or try to win debates anymore.

I'm 100% with you.

For example if I see a post I disagree with, I'll start to write a counter-argument then start to think, 'Wait, I am I spending this much time trying to convince this random dude on the internet that he's wrong? He probably won't get convinced anyway and I'll just end up getting sucked into a drawn-out debate." It feels like a waste of time and energy nowadays.

I do this at least once a day.

 

[Midnighter]

Life is pointless, now hold me while I cry.

 

[IDL]

Depend on what you are looking to get out of it.

If you want to be challenged and to learn something in the process, then it can be worth while.

If you are just looking to layeth the smack down on all those troglodytes who dare to have an incorrect opinion, then it is probably a waste.

 

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

with me yes, im extremely good at arguing, and when i make up my mind im 100% unwilling to even try to look at another persons perspective. im a master debater.

 

[Zer]

Way back when I first got the internet I was a pseudo-intellectual asshole who'd get into massive debates and arguments, trying to pass myself off like Hitchens or some shit. Then I started to live by that 'brevity is the soul of wit' thing and focused on becoming snappier. And that kind of evolved into me just avoiding arguments and posting shitty one liners and dick jokes instead, which is the @Zer that Sherdog got. If I'd joined a couple years earlier I probably would've been perma-banned in a heavies thread for wasting everyone's time. Makes you think.

 

[Peteyandjia]

Life is pointless, now hold me while I cry.

Hey, stop stealing my pickup lines.