Is Charles Oliveira a better grappler than prime BJ?

[Sivo The Ram]

Is Charles a BJJ world champion? BJ is.

I still think without the grease BJ would grapple fucked GSP. Instead GSP cheated and we have greasegate.

 

[DrMurrayDolphin]

Most wrestlers fighters nowadays keeps afraid of going to the ground with a world class black belt jiu-jitsu guy. Look at Kamaru and Chimaev x Burns
Makachev and Tysarukyan are exceptions (and Arman almost got finished by Charles)

I haven’t seen too much of what you’re talking about. Most wrestlers don’t seem too afraid of grappling with JJ guys. Modern wrestlers in UFC (mostly Eastern European) use a style of wrestling of constant chained takedown attempts and using constant pressure to get G’n’P or subs.

In fact, many “wrestlers” are looking for subs just as much as “JJ” guys. I’d say the only difference is that “wrestlers” prefer to work from top position while “JJ” guys are more willing to work from their backs. That’s just about the only difference.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

BJ could physically do things Charles cant do.

The jail break against GSP.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I haven’t seen too much of what you’re talking about. Most wrestlers don’t seem too afraid of grappling with JJ guys. Modern wrestlers in UFC (mostly Eastern European) use a style of wrestling of constant chained takedown attempts and using constant pressure to get G’n’P or subs.

In fact, many “wrestlers” are looking for subs just as much as “JJ” guys. I’d say the only difference is that “wrestlers” prefer to work from top position while “JJ” guys are more willing to work from their backs. That’s just about the only difference.

Eastern European guys struggle tremendously with BJJ guys on the ground. That is the biggest factor for them when trying to get up the ranks in MMA. You're likely just thinking of Umar and Islam who have much better grappling than most Eastern European fighters.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Prime BJ was not superior to the majority of modern champion level fighters. He would be nullified by any of the strong wrestlers.

Considering that BJ Penn himself had tremendous wrestling, I find that unlikely. He was able to easily out wrestle Jon Fitch at 170, took him down at will when he was fresh.

Penn fought in an era of the UFC that had more wrestlers and grapplers than today and people had a hard time taking him down.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

Eastern European guys struggle tremendously with BJJ guys on the ground. That is the biggest factor for them when trying to get up the ranks in MMA. You're likely just thinking of Umar and Islam who have much better grappling than most Eastern European fighters.

Nah. There's an underground ADCC circuit only for eastern Europeans. They're too dominant that they are kept hidden from Brazilians.

 

[TommyBikes]

Not only was BJ better, he would’ve tapped Charles easily. How many times has Charles been submitted anyway?

 

[DanDragon Machi]

Considering that BJ Penn himself had tremendous wrestling, I find that unlikely. He was able to easily out wrestle Jon Fitch at 170, took him down at will when he was fresh.

Penn fought in an era of the UFC that had more wrestlers and grapplers than today and people had a hard time taking him down.

True. Sean Sherk (strong and explosive as fuck) took Hughes down a few times and couldn't take BJ's down not once

 

[Dorkman]

At his absolute best i'd say Bj's was better.

 

[DrMurrayDolphin]

Considering that BJ Penn himself had tremendous wrestling, I find that unlikely. He was able to easily out wrestle Jon Fitch at 170, took him down at will when he was fresh.

Penn fought in an era of the UFC that had more wrestlers and grapplers than today and people had a hard time taking him down.

BJ got crushed by Fitch. If there wasn’t a referee to stop it he would have probably died by being beaten to death. Pretty irrelevant if he got a TD at the beginning of the fight.

Very confusing to try and use a fight like that as any justification for BJs skills.

 

[DrMurrayDolphin]

Eastern European guys struggle tremendously with BJJ guys on the ground. That is the biggest factor for them when trying to get up the ranks in MMA. You're likely just thinking of Umar and Islam who have much better grappling than most Eastern European fighters.

Khabib nor Merab have much of an issue with anybody’s grappling. A lot of JJ guys are also high level wrestlers themselves. As I said, the only difference is where they are comfortable having the fight. JJ guys are ok being on their back, while wrestlers prefer top position. Wrestlers also seem more content with G’n’P but will take any sub you give up, whereas JJ guys are constantly looking for the sub.

 

[joy2day]

BJ had the grappling credentials, but Chuck has applied knowledge from MMA. I would probably give the edge to BJ, but it isn't as far apart as some are making it IMO.

 

[DanDragon Machi]

BJ got crushed by Fitch. If there wasn’t a referee to stop it he would have probably died by being beaten to death. Pretty irrelevant if he got a TD at the beginning of the fight.

Very confusing to try and use a fight like that as any justification for BJs skills.

Because the thread is about prime BJ and don't that BJ who had gas for ten minutes. Prime BJ x Fitch probably the three rounds would be like was the first

 

[DrMurrayDolphin]

Because the thread is about prime BJ and don't that BJ who had gas for ten minutes. Prime BJ x Fitch probably the three rounds would be like was the first

Well demonstrably BJ got crushed by Fitch. We don’t have to wonder about the outcome.

In any case, Fitch was a great grinder but he was nowhere near the level of wrestling we’ve seen from Khabib, Usman, Islam, Merab, etc. BJ would likely have much less success against Islam than Fitch. So I really don’t see how the comparison is relevant.

 

[DanDragon Machi]

Well demonstrably BJ got crushed by Fitch. We don’t have to wonder about the outcome.

In any case, Fitch was a great grinder but he was nowhere near the level of wrestling we’ve seen from Khabib, Usman, Islam, Merab, etc. BJ would likely have much less success against Islam than Fitch. So I really don’t see how the comparison is relevant.

But the comparison is BJ x Charles, not BJ x Islam
And Merab couldn't outgrapple old Aldo, just for remember

 

[DanDragon Machi]

Fitch beaten Shields who was arguably one of the best WW grapplers all time

 

[Benoitthegr8]

BJ’s didn’t really adhere to the common sense of weight classes, thus half of his losses were fighting up at up at WW. Regardless of being undersized BJ would go to the death. He only lost once by submission, add that a majority of his KO loses were past his best. That being said… BJ Penn’s kryptonite was his inconsistencies in his conditioning, also he often changed trainers between fights. BJ goes to the death unless his opponent is an axle grease loaded French-Canucks or a Bantamweight.

Charles always knows when to live to fight another day, hence why he has 4 submission L’s on his resume, Charles is kill or be killed fighter, best whenever he’s the hammer, as the nail he would give up on himself….

Comparing them is like differentiating between the hamburgler and grimace.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Well demonstrably BJ got crushed by Fitch. We don’t have to wonder about the outcome.

In any case, Fitch was a great grinder but he was nowhere near the level of wrestling we’ve seen from Khabib, Usman, Islam, Merab, etc. BJ would likely have much less success against Islam than Fitch. So I really don’t see how the comparison is relevant.

I mean Fitch is probably two weight classes heavier than Penn, and he was hardly 'crushed' by him. Penn took himself down by accident in round 2, and in r1 won pretty easily.

You don't see how it is relevant that BJ Penn fought and beat up other grapplers, in a grappling comparison? BJ Penn was a strong wrestler.

Also, you dismiss Fitch as just a "grinder" but mention Merab, whos tactic is just to grind people?

It seems like in general you haven't demonstrated why BJ Penn is weak to wrestling. Because GSP, arguably the best grappler in MMA was able to do it (with a big size advantage) is hardly indicitive that Islam would just throw Penn on his arse. Even more odd saying this after Islam took many rounds to do that to Dustin who is nowhere near the level of grappler of Penn.

Islam hasn't easily disposed of any high level fighter using his wrestling. Islam success in submitting Oliveira primarily came from when he rocked Oliveira on the feet. Islam's wrestling had mixed results against Volk in the first fight and in the second one he out struck him. Islam's striking is a gigantic reason for his success, much more than some oppressive wrestling that he has, he is not GSP or Khabib.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

The best version of BabyJay would get smoked by this version of Charles.

 

[joy2day]

But this video is your proof right there. Hughes ended up finishing BJ in a crucifix. Oliveira's much more deadly than Hughes on his best night ever was.

One fight wouldn't be proof of anything, especially given he finished Hughes in the first round 2 other times.

What the poster was pointing out was that BJ did well even though he was injured; he had done some great grappling moves BEFORE he got injured. It is well known BJ was injured in the 2nd round of that fight.