Is Anthony Joshua the worst of the best?

[treelo]

i mean, Lewis wasnt overweight at all when McCall knocked him out

 

[BoxingMMA]

i mean, Lewis wasnt overweight at all when McCall knocked him out

This is true. I was just checking and he was under 240 for that one.

With Lennox, his weight was usually a telling sign of how he was going to do. The heavier he was the crappier he got. But you are right. With mcall he was fine.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

He did box competitively as an amateur. Period. You don't get to decide what is or isn't true. AI isn't reliable. I'm in the tech industry you dolt. AI systems 'hallucinate' and even their creators will tell you that you can't completely rely on them. I just gave you a DIRECT quote from Ngannou. Think he's lying? That's on you.

The fact that anyone would put all their judgement in AI summaries at this point of the game is funny actually

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

The fact that anyone would put all their judgement in AI summaries at this point of the game is funny actually

Yeah, it's hilarious that anyone would. AI is no substitute for thorough human research. Maybe someday it will be but we're not there yet.

 

[listrahtes]

My issue with Joshua is that he just looks weak even when he is supposed to look strong. He seems to be always a few mistakes away from fucking everything up.

But the guy reigned for a while, got a gold medal, beat wladimir, is a huge star and still has a potential monster clash against Fury (looks less likely every day) so I completely stand by my statement that he is an important HW and on the list of greats. Just at the very end of it.

Joshua is several levels below other ATG in terms of skillset. He was on the brink of getting ko d by a senior citizen Wladimir and showed his shortcomings several times. He is NOT an "important HW" at all and thats pretty common knowledge. He was for a short time the biggest in a very small pond. Someone like Shannon Briggs. Even a worn down Fury would beat him easy.

The only real ATG in the last years that came up was Usyk.

 

[Mujeriego]

I do know IRL some ppl

Fuck yea, I know some ppl in real life too.

 

[Blastbeat]

Joshua is several levels below other ATG in terms of skillset. He was on the brink of getting ko d by a senior citizen Wladimir and showed his shortcomings several times. He is NOT an "important HW" at all and thats pretty common knowledge. He was for a short time the biggest in a very small pond. Someone like Shannon Briggs. Even a worn down Fury would beat him easy.

The only real ATG in the last years that came up was Usyk.

Shannon Briggs is an ATG simply for his trolling alone
AJ may have KO'd Wlad but he didnt knock him off his paddleboard while laughing at him

 

[BoxingMMA]

Joshua is several levels below other ATG in terms of skillset. He was on the brink of getting ko d by a senior citizen Wladimir and showed his shortcomings several times. He is NOT an "important HW" at all and thats pretty common knowledge. He was for a short time the biggest in a very small pond. Someone like Shannon Briggs. Even a worn down Fury would beat him easy.

The only real ATG in the last years that came up was Usyk.

Yes I don’t think particularly highly of Joshua, I just think he isn’t as shit as many make him out to be. He was a strong, vulnerable HW. Wladimir had more dog in him that people thought he did in that fight. Yes he was shot but we didn’t expect him to put that much of a fight and Joshua deserves credit for that win.

 

[brundlefly]

There are a combined 7 title defenses in-between these fights and 6 of them are consecutive in Joshua's first title reign as champion. If we count Ruiz (who Joshua beat in the rematch) then Joshua beat 5 current/former/future world champions and a bunch of contenders as well.

2016: Took the IBF world title off current champion Charles Martin

2017: Beat former champ Wlad Klitschko and unified the IBF title with the WBA (Super) title

2018: Took the WBO world title off of current champion Joseph Parker to become a three-belt unified champ

2018: Beat former WBA (Regular) champion Alexander Povetkin

2019: Lost all 3 of his world titles to Ruiz but regained them only months later

2021: Lost all 3 of his world titles to Usyk

2022: Lost again to Usyk in the rematch

2024: Challenged Dubois for his IBF title and lost

I actually think aj performance against povetkin was his all time best performance. at that point i had high hopes for him. but he's been on a steady downslide since and the usyk fights especially exposed his shortcomings due to a limited amateur background.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I actually think aj performance against povetkin was his all time best performance. at that point i had high hopes for him. but he's been on a steady downslide since and the usyk fights especially exposed his shortcomings due to a limited amateur background.

This is such a dumb excuse. AJ had enough amateur experience. He medaled at both the Worlds & Olympics. Foreman & Holmes only had half as many amateur fights as AJ. Marciano only had a quarter and still managed to retire as an undefeated, undisputed, heavyweight champ.

 

[treelo]

i thought he did better against Usyk in that second fight than Fury did in either of his fights with Usyk

Usyk is a tough puzzle to solve, i think Chisora had the best idea, just charge at him and stay on top of him throwing every but the kitchen sink at him, it still didnt work, but he probably did better than anyone against him

 

[brundlefly]

This is such a dumb excuse. AJ had enough amateur experience. He medaled at both the Worlds & Olympics. Foreman & Holmes only had half as many amateur fights as AJ. Marciano only had a quarter and still managed to retire as an undefeated, undisputed, heavyweight champ.

don't know how you quantify "enough" when it comes to amateur experience. Was AJs amateur experience enough to prepare him for a guy like usyk? i would argue AJ's whole approach, especially in the first fight shows he had no idea how to strategize against usyks style.

as you pointed out, there have been guys who won the HW title, like berbick, witherspoon, etc, who only had a handful of HW amateur fights. but the thing about boxing amateur is, it provides a low-risk situation for guys to experience pretty much every conceivable style and scenario, while sustaining miniumum damage themselves. that is, they can learn and polish their skills SAFELY. therefore, the more amateur experience a guy has, the better prepared he is, as a pro for virtually any eventuality. if you're a HW and every guy you fight basically has the same "come forward and trade blows" style, then guys like Wilder, witherspoon, berbick, etc, will do well. But if guys are giving you different looks like andy ruiz and usyk, the difference in amateur experience becomes a factor.

Think of floyd evading the attempted headbutt from victor ortiz, or fighting effectively with one hand against JC Castillo. think of kostya tszyu figuring out a blinding fast southpaw like zab judah. thats' what amateur experience does for a fighter. they've already seen it all. Even if its a situation he's never faced before, he at least understands the process of adapting and figuring out his man.

thats' why AJ looked so confused and lost when usyk gave him that side-to-side movement. he was more accustomed to big, slow cumbersome guys who rely on brute force. and usyk being a southpaw left him even more lost. if AJ had faced more wily southpaws with high punch volume at amateur, as he invariably would, if he had a more extended career, he would have done a whole lot better against usyk. I think AJ should have got the decision in the rematch, but he let the fight slip away in the last two rounds when he was just following usyk around behind usyks flurries that really weren't landing or doing much damage, but AJ himself looked out to sea against the awkward style

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

don't know how you quantify "enough" when it comes to amateur experience. Was AJs amateur experience enough to prepare him for a guy like usyk? i would argue AJ's whole approach, especially in the first fight shows he had no idea how to strategize against usyks style.

as you pointed out, there have been guys who won the HW title, like berbick, witherspoon, etc, who only had a handful of HW amateur fights. but the thing about boxing amateur is, it provides a low-risk situation for guys to experience pretty much every conceivable style and scenario, while sustaining miniumum damage themselves. that is, they can learn and polish their skills SAFELY. therefore, the more amateur experience a guy has, the better prepared he is, as a pro for virtually any eventuality. if you're a HW and every guy you fight basically has the same "come forward and trade blows" style, then guys like Wilder, witherspoon, berbick, etc, will do well. But if guys are giving you different looks like andy ruiz and usyk, the difference in amateur experience becomes a factor.

Think of floyd evading the attempted headbutt from victor ortiz, or fighting effectively with one hand against JC Castillo. think of kostya tszyu figuring out a blinding fast southpaw like zab judah. thats' what amateur experience does for a fighter. they've already seen it all. Even if its a situation he's never faced before, he at least understands the process of adapting and figuring out his man.

thats' why AJ looked so confused and lost when usyk gave him that side-to-side movement. he was more accustomed to big, slow cumbersome guys who rely on brute force. and usyk being a southpaw left him even more lost. if AJ had faced more wily southpaws with high punch volume at amateur, as he invariably would, if he had a more extended career, he would have done a whole lot better against usyk. I think AJ should have got the decision in the rematch, but he let the fight slip away in the last two rounds when he was just following usyk around behind usyks flurries that really weren't landing or doing much damage, but AJ himself looked out to sea against the awkward style

Except nobody has been able to solve Usyk yet in the pros regardless of how much amateur experience they had. AJ did struggle with Usyk's southpaw tactics but it isn't like he'd never seen one before. He faced high level southpaws in the amateurs like Roberto Cammarelle. At the end of the day AJ lost because Usyk came more prepared and made the better adjustments both times.

As for thinking that AJ should've won the rematch, his own promoter thought Usyk won fair and square. Not to mention that AJ had a big meltdown in the ring afterward which would imply that he knew he'd convincingly lost to the better man. He's never claimed that he thought he won either fight.

 

[brundlefly]

Except nobody has been able to solve Usyk yet in the pros regardless of how much amateur experience they had. AJ did struggle with Usyk's southpaw tactics but it isn't like he'd never seen one before. He faced high level southpaws in the amateurs like Roberto Cammarelle. At the end of the day AJ lost because Usyk came more prepared and made the better adjustments both times.

As for thinking that AJ should've won the rematch, his own promoter thought Usyk won fair and square. Not to mention that AJ had a big meltdown in the ring afterward which would imply that he knew he'd convincingly lost to the better man. He's never claimed that he thought he won either fight.

i don't see the relevance of AJs meltdown in terms of how the fight was scored. And I don't know that a promoter is scoring a fight.

Also, I'm not saying AJ never faced a southpaw before. I'm saying if AJ had had a couple hundred amateur fights and had faced 20 or 30 different southpaws with varying styles in the amateurs, he'd be far better prepared to handle usyk. Considering his lack of experience, he did well. But amateur experience is a big piece of the puzzle when it comes to pro boxing. and the more amateur experience a fighter has, the more the benefits far outweigh the costs. If not, lomachenko would never have got a title shot in his 4th pro fight. like muhammad ali said, there is no substitute for experience, particularly in a sport like boxing.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

i don't see the relevance of AJs meltdown in terms of how the fight was scored. And I don't know that a promoter is scoring a fight.

Also, I'm not saying AJ never faced a southpaw before. I'm saying if AJ had had a couple hundred amateur fights and had faced 20 or 30 different southpaws with varying styles in the amateurs, he'd be far better prepared to handle usyk. Considering his lack of experience, he did well. But amateur experience is a big piece of the puzzle when it comes to pro boxing. and the more amateur experience a fighter has, the more the benefits far outweigh the costs. If not, lomachenko would never have got a title shot in his 4th pro fight. like muhammad ali said, there is no substitute for experience, particularly in a sport like boxing.

What do you think his meltdown was about then? He never complained about the result. Neither did his promoter Eddie Hearn. When the latter was asked how he scored the rematch he said that he had Usyk up by a couple rounds. He also said that he didn't see how that judge could have AJ winning 7 rounds.

You cite Lomachenko winning a world title in the pros in just his 4th fight (it was actually his 3rd) but neglected to mention that he got that title shot directly coming off a loss. He went into the fight against GRJ for the vacant WBO world title as a 1-1 pro. Salido had already shown him that professional experience is even more valuable than amateur experience is in the pros which is no surprise. Salido himself had no amateur background. He turned pro at age 15 which is common for a Mexican fighter.

 

[Intermission]

This is such a dumb excuse. AJ had enough amateur experience. He medaled at both the Worlds & Olympics. Foreman & Holmes only had half as many amateur fights as AJ. Marciano only had a quarter and still managed to retire as an undefeated, undisputed, heavyweight champ.

I think Joshua tried to trick Usyk into getting caught by letting Alexander be the aggressor. And he did a couple of times. A good puncer doesn't need to load up and Joshua is a technical puncher ..

But all in all it was a losing strategy both times. He should have gone out on his shield.

 

[brundlefly]

What do you think his meltdown was about then? He never complained about the result. Neither did his promoter Eddie Hearn. When the latter was asked how he scored the rematch he said that he had Usyk up by a couple rounds. He also said that he didn't see how that judge could have AJ winning 7 rounds.

You cite Lomachenko winning a world title in the pros in just his 4th fight (it was actually his 3rd) but neglected to mention that he got that title shot directly coming off a loss. He went into the fight against GRJ for the vacant WBO world title as a 1-1 pro. Salido had already shown him that professional experience is even more valuable than amateur experience is in the pros which is no surprise. Salido himself had no amateur background. He turned pro at age 15 which is common for a Mexican fighter.

Look, I don't really know for sure what AJ's meltdown was about after the usyk rematch. but it wouldn't make sense to have a meltdown if he knew usyk had outperformed him and the result was a fair one. It would make more sense for him to accept the decision in that case.

that said, I don't know what part of the world you are from, but I suspect it's not from the west. In the west, there is something called "sportsmanlike conduct." we view sporting activities as a worthwhile enterprise, but at the end of the day, it's just a game. win, draw or lose, you accept the result with dignity, humility and the understanding that it's not a reflection on you as a human being, but that the other side simply brought more to the day, so better luck next time. so, it makes sense that, notwithstanding the meltdown, AJ and hearn didn't "complain" about the decision. that's not a bad thing. it's a good thing because they're trying to be good sportsmen.

when it comes to salido vs lomachenko, that was not a case of pro experience being "more valuable" than amateur. It was simply a case of cherry-picking gone wrong. salido with his face first style, slow feet and wide punches and porous defense was supposed to be tailor-made for loma. that's the reason they picked salido to begin with. lomachenko had already faced dozens of guys with a similar style in the ams. But salido turned out to be more physical, more persistent and have more tricks in the bag than loma's team anticipated. It was not a boxing style thing. It was an intangibles thing. salido simply had loma's number. pro vs amateur experience was irrelevant to that case.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Look, I don't really know for sure what AJ's meltdown was about after the usyk rematch. but it wouldn't make sense to have a meltdown if he knew usyk had outperformed him and the result was a fair one. It would make more sense for him to accept the decision in that case.

that said, I don't know what part of the world you are from, but I suspect it's not from the west. In the west, there is something called "sportsmanlike conduct." we view sporting activities as a worthwhile enterprise, but at the end of the day, it's just a game. win, draw or lose, you accept the result with dignity, humility and the understanding that it's not a reflection on you as a human being, but that the other side simply brought more to the day, so better luck next time. so, it makes sense that, notwithstanding the meltdown, AJ and hearn didn't "complain" about the decision. that's not a bad thing. it's a good thing because they're trying to be good sportsmen.

when it comes to salido vs lomachenko, that was not a case of pro experience being "more valuable" than amateur. It was simply a case of cherry-picking gone wrong. salido with his face first style, slow feet and wide punches and porous defense was supposed to be tailor-made for loma. that's the reason they picked salido to begin with. lomachenko had already faced dozens of guys with a similar style in the ams. But salido turned out to be more physical, more persistent and have more tricks in the bag than loma's team anticipated. It was not a boxing style thing. It was an intangibles thing. salido simply had loma's number. pro vs amateur experience was irrelevant to that case.

That's really poor logic. It would make even less sense to have a full-blown meltdown and Team AJ not mention that they felt the decision was controversial. As for Loma facing a grizzled vet in Salido so early, it's cherry picking for a 1-0 professional to fight a world champion in only his second pro fight? Absurd. Not to mention that if Salido felt that he had Loma's number then he would've given him a rematch. His own manager Sean Gibbons even said that he didn't understand why he didn't take the rematch because the money they asked for was presented to them by Top Rank.

 

[SandisLL]

Look, I don't really know for sure what AJ's meltdown was about after the usyk rematch. but it wouldn't make sense to have a meltdown if he knew usyk had outperformed him and the result was a fair one. It would make more sense for him to accept the decision in that case.

that said, I don't know what part of the world you are from, but I suspect it's not from the west. In the west, there is something called "sportsmanlike conduct." we view sporting activities as a worthwhile enterprise, but at the end of the day, it's just a game. win, draw or lose, you accept the result with dignity, humility and the understanding that it's not a reflection on you as a human being, but that the other side simply brought more to the day, so better luck next time. so, it makes sense that, notwithstanding the meltdown, AJ and hearn didn't "complain" about the decision. that's not a bad thing. it's a good thing because they're trying to be good sportsmen.

when it comes to salido vs lomachenko, that was not a case of pro experience being "more valuable" than amateur. It was simply a case of cherry-picking gone wrong. salido with his face first style, slow feet and wide punches and porous defense was supposed to be tailor-made for loma. that's the reason they picked salido to begin with. lomachenko had already faced dozens of guys with a similar style in the ams. But salido turned out to be more physical, more persistent and have more tricks in the bag than loma's team anticipated. It was not a boxing style thing. It was an intangibles thing. salido simply had loma's number. pro vs amateur experience was irrelevant to that case.

At first narcoman should had weighted in in norm, stuff maybe possible nacroman didn't managed to do before fight. This maybe narcoman's passport greatness here.

Don't compare rude maybe narcoman with Lopez for example.

 

[brundlefly]

At first narcoman should had weighted in in norm, stuff maybe possible nacroman didn't managed to do before fight. This maybe narcoman's passport greatness here.

Don't compare rude maybe narcoman with Lopez for example.

wtf?!!