Social Institution engaged in systemic racism asks students to stay at home and ponder systemic racism

[Higus]

We understand the concept, we disagree on its validity.

Thats like saying you don't believe in the validity of evolution. If you don't think it is sound, you are probably starting on a faulty premise.

 

[The ScorpioN]

Thats like saying you don't believe in the validity of evolution. If you don't think it is sound, you are probably starting on a faulty premise.

If systemic racism had as much validity as evolution you wouldn't need the sophistry and false premises you used in your response to Newt

 

[hedidhisownstunts]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/bellarmi...lle-university-cancels-classes-breonna-taylor

Shouldn’t every student be treated equally regardless of skin pigmentation? How can you have different admission criteria from one group to another? Perhaps the university administration should reflect on that. It’s not the students that needed a day off it’s them. Hopefully someone posts this on social media and let this school’s administrators look like the fools they are

strong thread title

 

[The ScorpioN]

@Higus btw there some irony in you bringing up evolution, because if your premises about systemic racist as true that implies that evolution somehow stopped working on humans, their abilities and behaviors.

 

[EyeOfNewt]

Let me retract my previous statement: I think you understand what SR is, but I don’t have faith that you can discuss it honestly. If you are genuinely confused about the differences, then there are better places to get information than me. Might I suggest Google or Wikipedia?

It’s obvious that you are trying to make an argument that affirmative action hurts Asian Americans. The question is if you are actually concerned about advancing justice for Asians, advancing merit based admissions processes, or ending a practice you believe hurts white people. If you actually support merit based admissions, you could make a thread about how legacy based admissions are bullshit. If you care about Asian equality, you could investigate the root causes behind how the disparities between different groups of Asians rather than focusing on the most successful ones. You could have a thoughtful discussion on if the face value inequality of affirmative action in university admissions is an effective tool to counteract the inequalities created by systemic racism in public school education. Any of those would be more interesting than walking into a gotcha question.

There is no gotcha question. It’s plain and simple. Rewards, gifts, call it what you want, based on skin pigmentation is racism in its raw, naked form. How can you argue against this?

To make sure I understand your point. Are you claiming that schools are systematically racist (affirmative action) to combat other forms of systemic racism (negative action lol?) in an attempt to balance at 0?

if this is the case, what are the other forms of systemic racism? Maybe i can go a step further and ask how do you evaluate what the net amount of systemic racism is? How do you know you’re not overestimating or underestimating?

 

[rob mafia]

Let me retract my previous statement: I think you understand what SR is, but I don’t have faith that you can discuss it honestly. If you are genuinely confused about the differences, then there are better places to get information than me. Might I suggest Google or Wikipedia?

It’s obvious that you are trying to make an argument that affirmative action hurts Asian Americans. The question is if you are actually concerned about advancing justice for Asians, advancing merit based admissions processes, or ending a practice you believe hurts white people. If you actually support merit based admissions, you could make a thread about how legacy based admissions are bullshit. If you care about Asian equality, you could investigate the root causes behind how the disparities between different groups of Asians rather than focusing on the most successful ones. You could have a thoughtful discussion on if the face value inequality of affirmative action in university admissions is an effective tool to counteract the inequalities created by systemic racism in public school education. Any of those would be more interesting than walking into a gotcha question.

lolz @ this progression. you told someone that they didn't know what something means, you were asked to define it... you then retracted and rambled.

le sigh.

 

[thehighking]

There is no gotcha question. It’s plain and simple. Rewards, gifts, call it what you want, based on skin pigmentation is racism in its raw, naked form. How can you argue against this?

To make sure I understand your point. Are you claiming that schools are systematically racist (affirmative action) to combat other forms of systemic racism (negative action lol?) in an attempt to balance at 0?

if this is the case, what are the other forms of systemic racism? Maybe i can go a step further and ask how do you evaluate what the net amount of systemic racism is? How do you know you’re not overestimating or underestimating?

The people who believe in systematic racism are the real racists here. They can't comprehend the fact that most people aren't racist and don't care what skin color someone has. They judge everyone by their skin color and not by their character. It's ironic/moronic that these people claim to be pushing for civil rights when their views go completely against the ideals of the real civil rights activists in recent history who overcame actual racism. I wish MLK Jr could come back and talk some sense into these racists.

 

[SanchoMF]

We need some serious reform in these institutions

they’re becoming leftist propaganda institutions

they largely a scam as well trapping kids into 300k in debt for useless degrees such as liberal studies , women studies , native American history

then they burn shit down and riot because they’re stuck in their lives because the “capitalist system is broken”

Well McCarthyism drove the commies into hiding. They've been lurking in the academia ever since.
They never really had to grow up from the idealism and social(ist) circles, because at least back then the academia tolerated different opinions there was still a bit of the genuine open-mindedness left. Apart from hard science it's an echo-chamber of total losers.

 

[Higus]

There is no gotcha question. It’s plain and simple. Rewards, gifts, call it what you want, based on skin pigmentation is racism in its raw, naked form. How can you argue against this?

To make sure I understand your point. Are you claiming that schools are systematically racist (affirmative action) to combat other forms of systemic racism (negative action lol?) in an attempt to balance at 0?

if this is the case, what are the other forms of systemic racism? Maybe i can go a step further and ask how do you evaluate what the net amount of systemic racism is? How do you know you’re not overestimating or underestimating?

Sorry, I’d have replied sooner but it’s been a busy day.

If you want to be semantically cute, then yes, affirmative action in college admissions is both technically racist and technically systemic, but it is not the archetypal example of systemic racism. You are using a noncentral fallacy for your initial description; technically correct but rhetorically misleading and dishonest. It’s like saying there shouldn’t be a holiday honoring MLK because he was a criminal and criminals should not be celebrated.


To the second point about racism combating racism, yes that is essentially what I’m saying. If you have a system that produces a biased outcome, one way to correct it is to force a bias in the opposite direction. Like pressing the gas to overcome the force of friction slowing down a moving car.


Coincidentally, education is a great place to start understanding the effects of systemic racism.


Let’s start with college admissions. The college (probably) does not have an explicit goal to limit the number of black students enrolled in the school, but the combined effects of systemic racism can have that outcome. It’s cause and effect.

If there are less black students enrolled in the college, it’s likely because there are less qualified black students applying. If there are less qualified black students applying, it is likely because their high schools are inadequate. The inadequacy is at least partially due to underfunding, the underfunding is due to how public schools are funded by property taxes, and the district the school is in has lower property values.

Go back a bit and maybe that district was a formerly Redlined area, so the people that lived there couldn’t get loans from banks to buy property or start businesses, which means the families that lived there did not have the same opportunities to gain and pass down wealth as people that lived outside of the Redline area.

And since the main ways that wealth are created in this country is through inheritance and real estate, that means that these areas became concentrated with poverty. And because the areas are high poverty, they also have high crime, which lowers the property values, which lower the tax base, which affect the schools, etc., etc., etc.

Now at no point was any policy made with the explicit purpose of excluding people with dark skin from higher education institutions, but the combined results have the same effect, intentionally or not.


To the last point, about how to quantify the net impact of system racism, that’s a really difficult question. How do you quantify the opportunity lost to black soldiers returning from WW2 that explicitly excluded from the GI bill, for instance? How many white soldiers used the bill to go to college or get low interest loans on homes, which helped them create wealth for their families? Or even more interesting to consider, how does that compare to the Japanese American soldiers that also benefit from the bill? What does some of the wealth gaps between black, white, and Japanese families today?

Or think about this for a moment: what would be the today value of the labor produced by enslaved people? Excluding settlement costs for murder, abuse and rape, if freed slaves were compensated for their labor, what would that be worth to their ancestors today after 200+ years of interest is factored? We’re talking 10’s of Trillions of dollars, conservatively, that black families were cheated from.

Instead of trying to quantify the effect, maybe the question could be simpler; if the current system creates inequality, does affirmative action reduce it?

 

[Diogenes of Sinope]

We need some serious reform in these institutions

they’re becoming leftist propaganda institutions

they largely a scam as well trapping kids into 300k in debt for useless degrees such as liberal studies , women studies , native American history

then they burn shit down and riot because they’re stuck in their lives because the “capitalist system is broken”

becoming? Bro, they're full blown Marxists. My sister is in a teaching program called "Teach For America." They ran her through a training exercise where they covered the "Signs and Symptoms of White supremacy."

Which were:

-emphasizing the importance of being on Time
-emphasizing hard work
-objectivity
-emphasizing the written word over spoken word

Aka capitalist values.

They also trained them on how to talk to the press if anyone from the media ever questioned them.

How crazy is that???

 

[Higus]

@Higus btw there some irony in you bringing up evolution, because if your premises about systemic racist as true that implies that evolution somehow stopped working on humans, their abilities and behaviors.

Im not following

 

[Ornife]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/bellarmi...lle-university-cancels-classes-breonna-taylor

Shouldn’t every student be treated equally regardless of skin pigmentation? How can you have different admission criteria from one group to another? Perhaps the university administration should reflect on that. It’s not the students that needed a day off it’s them. Hopefully someone posts this on social media and let this school’s administrators look like the fools they are

Unfortunately many individuals evidently consider skin pigmentation the critical measure of a human being's character and worth. This seems to have become increasingly prevalent throughout my life as racial tensions continue to increase.

 

[EyeOfNewt]

Unfortunately many individuals evidently consider skin pigmentation the critical measure of a human being's character and worth. This seems to have become increasingly prevalent throughout my life as racial tensions continue to increase.

Shouldn’t last much longer, eventually things fall into equilibrium . Hang in there.

 

[tenniswhiz]

I'm sorry, but I can't understand how this links to systemic racism at all. They went to serve a no-knock warrant, knocked, were shot at, and police returned fire. This is clear cut would have gone down exactly the same regardless of race. The police didn't even really know who they were shooting back at, so how could any killing have been racially motivated?

To answer that, we’d need to know what percentage of the apartment complex is black.
If it’s a high percentage, then obviously racial (and class) segregation is a systemic issue in this case.
I’m willing to bet that no-knock raids and nervous cops on edge are less likely in places like Irvine (CA), Scarsdale (NY), or Wilmette (IL).

As for the cops being on edge or having itchy trigger fingers in certain neighborhoods and situations, I don’t know what to say. I’ve never been a cop in dangerous situations, conditioned by previous dangerous experiences.

 

[hedidhisownstunts]

To answer that, we’d need to know what percentage of the apartment complex is black.
If it’s a high percentage, then obviously racial (and class) segregation is a systemic issue in this case.
I’m willing to bet that no-knock raids and nervous cops on edge are less likely in places like Irvine (CA), Scarsdale (NY), or Wilmette (IL).

As for the cops being on edge or having itchy trigger fingers in certain neighborhoods and situations, I don’t know what to say. I’ve never been a cop in dangerous situations, conditioned by previous dangerous experiences.

I think it’s safe to say if a group of police have a no-knock warrant and are shot at upon knocking, they’re 100% going to return fire.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Well McCarthyism drove the commies into hiding. They've been lurking in the academia ever since.
They never really had to grow up from the idealism and social(ist) circles, because at least back then the academia tolerated different opinions there was still a bit of the genuine open-mindedness left. Apart from hard science it's an echo-chamber of total losers.

Apart from science? You're mistaken. I know lots of STEM PhDs. The vast majority lack the same basic critical thinking skills as someone with a degree in postmodern motifs in intersectional hip hop. They extrapolate the isolated incidents the MSM choose to feed them into the biggest problems in society, exercising confirmation bias all the way, and then appeal to each other's authority as vindication.

 

[The ScorpioN]

Im not following

Doesn't surprise me. The systemic racism crowd are the new creationists.

 

[EyeOfNewt]

Sorry, I’d have replied sooner but it’s been a busy day.

If you want to be semantically cute, then yes, affirmative action in college admissions is both technically racist and technically systemic, but it is not the archetypal example of systemic racism. You are using a noncentral fallacy for your initial description; technically correct but rhetorically misleading and dishonest. It’s like saying there shouldn’t be a holiday honoring MLK because he was a criminal and criminals should not be celebrated.


To the second point about racism combating racism, yes that is essentially what I’m saying. If you have a system that produces a biased outcome, one way to correct it is to force a bias in the opposite direction. Like pressing the gas to overcome the force of friction slowing down a moving car.


Coincidentally, education is a great place to start understanding the effects of systemic racism.


Let’s start with college admissions. The college (probably) does not have an explicit goal to limit the number of black students enrolled in the school, but the combined effects of systemic racism can have that outcome. It’s cause and effect.

If there are less black students enrolled in the college, it’s likely because there are less qualified black students applying. If there are less qualified black students applying, it is likely because their high schools are inadequate. The inadequacy is at least partially due to underfunding, the underfunding is due to how public schools are funded by property taxes, and the district the school is in has lower property values.

Go back a bit and maybe that district was a formerly Redlined area, so the people that lived there couldn’t get loans from banks to buy property or start businesses, which means the families that lived there did not have the same opportunities to gain and pass down wealth as people that lived outside of the Redline area.

And since the main ways that wealth are created in this country is through inheritance and real estate, that means that these areas became concentrated with poverty. And because the areas are high poverty, they also have high crime, which lowers the property values, which lower the tax base, which affect the schools, etc., etc., etc.

Now at no point was any policy made with the explicit purpose of excluding people with dark skin from higher education institutions, but the combined results have the same effect, intentionally or not.


To the last point, about how to quantify the net impact of system racism, that’s a really difficult question. How do you quantify the opportunity lost to black soldiers returning from WW2 that explicitly excluded from the GI bill, for instance? How many white soldiers used the bill to go to college or get low interest loans on homes, which helped them create wealth for their families? Or even more interesting to consider, how does that compare to the Japanese American soldiers that also benefit from the bill? What does some of the wealth gaps between black, white, and Japanese families today?

Or think about this for a moment: what would be the today value of the labor produced by enslaved people? Excluding settlement costs for murder, abuse and rape, if freed slaves were compensated for their labor, what would that be worth to their ancestors today after 200+ years of interest is factored? We’re talking 10’s of Trillions of dollars, conservatively, that black families were cheated from.

Instead of trying to quantify the effect, maybe the question could be simpler; if the current system creates inequality, does affirmative action reduce it?

I’m not being dishonest, I just take things at face value, I see them as they are.

Why do you think fighting ‘systemic racism’ with ‘affirmative action’ will balance each other out? It’s certainly true in physics when you’re talking about forces as vector quantities. I have no trouble believing that, but the things we’re talking about are certainly not vector quantities. At least no one showed that they are.

So far you have shown that there was systemic racism in the past, and no one said otherwise. But what kind of systemic racism is ongoing right now against blacks to warrant that other groups be punished for it? How does that even help but create further divide? Shouldn’t reparations be more in order? At least you’re not punishing other groups this way and they would certainly eliminate the wealth inheritance issue. After that, it’s their problem.

As far as colleges are concerned, maybe it has less to do with how many apply and more to do with the value of education within their communities. I heard recently some black kids tell another black kid he was too white for the fact that he enjoyed school. The reality is education is belittled and looked down in their circles. It’s something associated with ‘whiteness’.

Regardless of all this, there is something in your post that comes over and over. The underlying theme seems to be finance as you mentioned wealth, interest, loans, taxes, inheritance, real estate, etc. These are all words you’ve written and they all point to social status rather than skin pigmentation. You’ve shown, whether you like or not, for good or for worse, that this had nothing to do with race to begin with and at least something to do with social class. You’ve used the word inequality and once again this highlights the real problem. Inequalities are between numbers not colors. And since it’s a problem of numbers (read $) then I can’t see how making it a skin problem will yield a solution.

 

[Higus]

Doesn't surprise me. The systemic racism crowd are the new creationists.

I mentioned the evolution thing because when someone doesn't believe in evolution, most of the time its because they have a misconception about what evolution actually is. For instance, i got into it with TCK many years ago because he didn't believe in evolution. After drilling down a bit, he explained that his definition of evolution was an ant giving birth to a spider.
So what do you think is an example of systemic racism? It might explain why you don't think it is valid.

 

[The ScorpioN]

I mentioned the evolution thing because when someone doesn't believe in evolution, most of the time its because they have a misconception about what evolution actually is. For instance, i got into it with TCK many years ago because he didn't believe in evolution. After drilling down a bit, he explained that his definition of evolution was an ant giving birth to a spider.
So what do you think is an example of systemic racism? It might explain why you don't think it is valid.

Newt already gave you an explanation, so much so that you had to retreat into sophistry about his motivations, as if that adds or detracts anything from validity of his argument.