Inifinite Intensity for strength training/mma/home training

[shitgenericname16]

Hi all. Firstly im new here. I took the time to read the stickys but I have things specific to my own training and goals that I woulds like to address and get help with if I can.

I want to build a solid aerobic base for 2 months, I plan on using exclusively calisthenics for strength for a month or so during this period before eventually moving to incorporate some of the methods from Ross Enamaits Infinite Intensity book. Which will means using heavy dumbells and sandbags for strength a couple times a week, and slowly scale back on the distance running in favour of 1 or 2 interval sessions and a sprint session. Ill then hopefully maintain my base with a single 6-8 mile run a week.

Once I have my base after 2 months I want to include barbells (Yes I have the starting strength book), I will do 2-3 times a week for my strength sessions for a month before going back to my local mma gym which ive been on somewhat of a hiatus from due to money/motivation/being a twat etc.

I will be training mma monday through thursday evenings by this point. Friday will be a rest day and Saturday will be gym day training with barbells, however I am wondering if for my other strength session (which will have to be on one of my mma days/in the a.m. ideally) if I would be better off/fresher for the evening gym session if I did a home based strength session with sandbags and dumbells like in Infinite Intensity.. It seems Rosses books have a good reputation here but not many talk about using his routines exlcusively for strength..

I will add that I recently got a squat rack/bench support (the kind that can tip if you dont weigh them down) and a bench so I can do squats/and/or benching (seems squats are more important) on the strength day that isnt on the saturday... it saves going to the gym plus I get to keep the benefits of sandbag use by staying at home for this strength session... im pretty new to SS or barbells for that matter though and am wondering if im gonna end up not being able to go as heavy due to lack of spotter/peopel around me. However on the other hand I am also concerned about legs being fresh for any potential sparring that evening.. maybe I could bench at home and follow up with some sandbag work and heavy dumbell snatches ala II style, then just do the squats and deads on a saturday..

Typically people here seem to reccomend a 2 day split between workouts A and B from SS if training in mma also.. this would mean squats both workouts.. I could do the benching and squats at home and the deadlifts and shoulder press would need to be on the saturday due to floor damage/ceiling height. Perhaps I could practise the powerclean at home too.. however if I wanted to take advantage of some heavy sandbag shouldering and dumbell work maybe this would be too much for strength work on the day I lift and do mma...

Thoughts/opinions.. (thank you in advance)

 

[Genghiz]

First off good strategy building an aerobic base first. That's the smart way to go about it.

Ross Enamait's stuff is excellent, but better suited to conditioning vs strength.

There are proven best practices that will help you get the most out of your strength training, lower rep, higher intensity, and some sort of progression. Ross's strength training has no systematic progression.

If I were in your shoes, I'd combine the aerobic base building with starting strength. 3-5 days of easy LISS combined with 3 days of lifting barbells.

Then when you finish base building and switch to more of an MMA /HIIT focus, use a two day strength template like 531 for MMA or Tactical Barbell Fighter. Instead of doing a 3 day template like SS half assed, you may as well do a proper 2 day template.

Plus if you're serious about your MMA training, lifting twice a week is ideal. Once your strength increases and your loads become heavy you'll have a hard time sustaining 3 days of barbell work + MMA + extra conditioning.

I train Muay Thai 3-4 x week, three days of lifting was easy enough in the beginning, but became too much after getting to relatively heavy numbers. Two is just right. I'm still progressing without much interference to my MT. Everyone's work capacity is different of course, but food for thought.

 

[shitgenericname16]

First off good strategy building an aerobic base first. That's the smart way to go about it.

Ross Enamait's stuff is excellent, but better suited to conditioning vs strength.

There are proven best practices that will help you get the most out of your strength training, lower rep, higher intensity, and some sort of progression. Ross's strength training has no systematic progression.

If I were in your shoes, I'd combine the aerobic base building with starting strength. 3-5 days of easy LISS combined with 3 days of lifting barbells.

Then when you finish base building and switch to more of an MMA /HIIT focus, use a two day strength template like 531 for MMA or Tactical Barbell Fighter. Instead of doing a 3 day template like SS half assed, you may as well do a proper 2 day template.

Plus if you're serious about your MMA training, lifting twice a week is ideal. Once your strength increases and your loads become heavy you'll have a hard time sustaining 3 days of barbell work + MMA + extra conditioning.

I train Muay Thai 3-4 x week, three days of lifting was easy enough in the beginning, but became too much after getting to relatively heavy numbers. Two is just right. I'm still progressing without much interference to my MT. Everyone's work capacity is different of course, but food for thought.

Thanks for the response.

I asked similar advice on Rosses forum. The response I got was that id basically get killed if I spend too much time on the strength and conditioning side of things and that I should build it around the sport itself. Well the way I see it the mma gym is only 2 hours 4 nights a week.. unless I can get to another gym to work more on bjj or muay thai then supplemental work is all I can do right now besides the training itself. With this in mind I would rather build my aerobic base before going back. So perhaps this and ss wouldnt be such a bad idea. I really dont plan on doing the distance runs more than 3 times a week.

I do plan on lifting at least twice a week as a beginner once I go back, but the response I get elswhere has got me thinking... :/ If after a while I wanted to compete would it be a good idea to drop strength training to once a week and just "maintain" a level of strength and maybe branch out day 5 and 6 to other gyms such as muay thai or bjj class (the mma gym is kickboxing and sub wrestling)..

this is where I would struggle in terms of what ratio of classes.. . for example whether it should be 4 mma days and 2 muay thai, or 3 mma, 2bjj and 1 muay thai etc...

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Maxtheripper13]

You could just do tactical barbell, in particular the 2 day fighter program while doing the base building runs.
It really is just a lower volume starting strength when you think about it.
Once you get you back into the mma training you can mix up the runs and throw in a couple short conditioning finishers if you still feels that lacking at your MMA training.

Starting strength is just a program. Tactical barbell or similar with a good selection of exercises, will get you to the exact same place as starting strength. Genghiz above, did ross's 50 day II program, but substituted Tac barbell's 2 day fighter for the strength work.
I think this might be an excellent approach for you after the base building. Check the training logs.

 

[Genghiz]

OP, if you consider yourself a novice lifter (still able to progress from workout to workout) then stick with Starting Strength or any linear periodization program during your Base Building block.

TB is awesome, and I continue to make excellent progress using their waved periodization style. But I wouldn't make the switch from SS until one of two things happen for you;

1. You can no longer progress in a linear fashion. Milk that shit dry.

2. And/OR you take up a sport and lifting becomes supplementary (as with MMA in your case down the road)

That's why I think SS would be perfect in your case during base building, followed by a switch to either TB or 531 2 x week when you begin your MMA in earnest.

Others may disagree, but I don't think lifting once a week is worth it. At least twice a week is needed, and really shouldn't be an issue with the minimalist programs I've mentioned.

 

[shitgenericname16]

You could just do tactical barbell, in particular the 2 day fighter program while doing the base building runs.
It really is just a lower volume starting strength when you think about it.
Once you get you back into the mma training you can mix up the runs and throw in a couple short conditioning finishers if you still feels that lacking at your MMA training.

Starting strength is just a program. Tactical barbell or similar with a good selection of exercises, will get you to the exact same place as starting strength. Genghiz above, did ross's 50 day II program, but substituted Tac barbell's 2 day fighter for the strength work.
I think this might be an excellent approach for you after the base building. Check the training logs.

Thanks I just looekd it up, do I ideally need to get the book or can I just follow the template from this site if its floating around?

I have SS for reading about the lifts themselves so perhaps wont need another barbell book ill jsut follow the template.

If in the future I decide I dont want to compete in mma but still want to do the training is it possible to lift 3 times a week for size and maybe learn bjj 3 times a week?.. this isnt a goal right now as im more interested in the fighting side of thigns but I ask as I feel I will know more on which way I want to go in the next 6 months or so of training.

On the other hand if I decide to step into the cage I feel I am gonna need more than the 4 days a week of mma and will have to travel further afield for some bjj specific stuff, there is also a muay thai gym further out too... actually the bjj gym was where I originally wanted to go but I tried out the mma gym after hearing about it fro mthe gym I wanted to do bjj when I enquired and explained to them where I lvie and the distance issue.. so I plan on building aerobic and strength base to go back there (money isnt an issue this time) and if I wanna fight maybe I should drop the 4 days to 2 days mma and 2 days bjj at the original gym I tried, and maybe 1 day mauy thai?... what is generally considered the best balance between classes if distance to gyms isnt an option for an amateur?

More importantly if I cant get to those other 2 gyms is 4 days of mma (2 hours each session) coupled with my own supplemental work (strength an conditioning) enough to compete safely?.. some of the guys on Rosses site seem to favour getting as much emphasis on skill work as possible and sod the conditioning if your a beginner.. I dont think thats always practical though..

 

[Genghiz]

You could just do tactical barbell, in particular the 2 day fighter program while doing the base building runs.
It really is just a lower volume starting strength when you think about it.
Once you get you back into the mma training you can mix up the runs and throw in a couple short conditioning finishers if you still feels that lacking at your MMA training.

Starting strength is just a program. Tactical barbell or similar with a good selection of exercises, will get you to the exact same place as starting strength. Genghiz above, did ross's 50 day II program, but substituted Tac barbell's 2 day fighter for the strength work.
I think this might be an excellent approach for you after the base building. Check the training logs.

I've never used TB with II 50 Day like that, that's another log you're thinking of. Can't remember what the results were with that but definitely makes sense as a combo.

 

[shitgenericname16]

OP, if you consider yourself a novice lifter (still able to progress from workout to workout) then stick with Starting Strength or any linear periodization program during your Base Building block.

TB is awesome, and I continue to make excellent progress using their waved periodization style. But I wouldn't make the switch from SS until one of two things happen for you;

1. You can no longer progress in a linear fashion. Milk that shit dry.

2. And/OR you take up a sport and lifting becomes supplementary (as with MMA in your case down the road)

That's why I think SS would be perfect in your case during base building, followed by a switch to either TB or 531 2 x week when you begin your MMA in earnest.

Others may disagree, but I don't think lifting once a week is worth it. At least twice a week is needed, and really shouldn't be an issue with the minimalist programs I've mentioned.

So SS until I go back (1-2 months) and then switch to TB 2 day split ot stay with SS on a 2 day split.. thanks man this is pretty helpful.

In regards to lifting once a week. I say this as 4 days a week at the mma gym will be 1 hour wrestling and 1 hour kickboxing, it seems I would need muay thai and more bjj knowledge to compete though?.. when I used to go to the mma gym I noticed hardly anybody went all 4 days.. these were 2 types of people.. hobbyists who just attend when they can and the other is people who fight but are getting more specific BJJ or muay thai stuff from other gyms available in the city so can only attend the mma gy a couple of nights.. I guess this would be for the sparring and putting it all together.

I dont have a martial art base but when I go back I plan on training all 4 days as well as doing strength and conditioning, this would be 2 strength days and 3 running days. I also plan on shadowboxing and working the double end bag and heavy bag at home in the a.m. but am not sure if this would be too much.. my home sessions in the morning would be mostly boxing based and/or working kicks but its not like I can grapple at home.. then I would end these sessions with a distance run/sprint/or timed interval, one of the days I would finish with a strength workout, but no heavy bag work this day. I might even jsut do the strength session ONLY on that day consdiering I will have mma in the evening.

Problem with me is I want to be dedicated and see what I can do and hopefully become competent enough for competition but idk what is too much/too little.. a lot of guys on Rosses forum complain about too much accessory work when you bring up topics like this..

 

[Pitbull]

Of course you won't know if it's too much at this point. You won't know until you start MMA. Can't you start MMA earlier?

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

The problem is there are no "beginner full-time training programs". Not that you can't train seriously from the beginning, but it's just different than training a few days a week. You have to be thinking 6 months ahead instead of 8 weeks and you have to except that your gains are going to come slower than if you focused on one quality.

The problem I see with your plan is that it's to focused on the finish line. You're trying to do all the right things but your trying to force everything to fit your time-line. You're moving through all these prioritization phases based on time alone. That will cause you to peak at a random unplanned time.

In my opinion, you should take a step back before going forward. Do a Prep phase. Do the running you where planning, and do the calisthenics, but do the sand bag & dumbbell stuff one day a week. Throw in 1 set of Squats & Press once a week. Throw in 5 minutes of intervals a week and do like.. 1 sprint.

Do that until you understand how you recover from week to week. Then start adding quality work to the weaknesses you discovered. Abracadabra, you're now in the base phase without even knowing it.

 

[shitgenericname16]

The problem is there are no "beginner full-time training programs". Not that you can't train seriously from the beginning, but it's just different than training a few days a week. You have to be thinking 6 months ahead instead of 8 weeks and you have to except that your gains are going to come slower than if you focused on one quality.

The problem I see with your plan is that it's to focused on the finish line. You're trying to do all the right things but your trying to force everything to fit your time-line. You're moving through all these prioritization phases based on time alone. That will cause you to peak at a random unplanned time.

In my opinion, you should take a step back before going forward. Do a Prep phase. Do the running you where planning, and do the calisthenics, but do the sand bag & dumbbell stuff one day a week. Throw in 1 set of Squats & Press once a week. Throw in 5 minutes of intervals a week and do like.. 1 sprint.

Do that until you understand how you recover from week to week. Then start adding quality work to the weaknesses you discovered. Abracadabra, you're now in the base phase without even knowing it.

Heads a little fuzzy so I dont udnerstand what the second paragraph means in real terms right now..

On the other hand the thrid paragraph kinda sounds like what I was gonna do anyway.. gradually of course.

I think I could jsut bench at home and maybe practise the powerclean (if its ok to do this with spinlock barbell?) , follow this with 1 or 2 sandbag movements and a couple of dumbell movements from infinte Intensity and I think legs would be fresher for the gym that evening, than if I did squats in the middle of the week/and/or deadlifts which I would just save for the saturday session.

Once my aerobic base is built I would maintain it with one LSS run a week and would do sprints once a week and intervals once a week. With 2 strength sessions a week this should be plenty.

Something I have yet to decide is whether or not I want to compete. I would like to speak with someone here about whether 4 days of mma training a week is adequate for competition when you dont have a previous base.

How important is it to have a specific belt for BJJ, or getting additional mauy thai work? bearing in mind I would only ever want to compette at ammy level, but I dont really know what I would be up against.. is it risky to only do the mma training if that makes sense?

There is only one school for bjj in the city and its far as shit, there is a mauy (cant spell!) thai gym further out fro mthe mma gym too.. maybe eventually if I decide to compete I ought to travel to the bjj school and do 3 days a week and just keep one day of mma for the sparring/standup. Once I reach a certain belt (I have no idea which) scale it back to 2 days a week and reintroduce 3 of the mma days and maybe 1 day at the thai gym if I can fit it in jsut to sharpen up on kicking technique wise (something a lil more indepth than I might otherwise get at the mma gym?).. would be talknig 6 days a week of training by this point and would probably only be able to make 1 strength session a week, but this is from the perspective that mroe time training skills would be better if I wanted to train to compete say 6 months from where im currently at.. I have looked at some threads here about strength routines but would like advice from any and all who fight so I know how to balance training if I decide to fight.

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

Heads a little fuzzy so I dont udnerstand what the second paragraph means in real terms right now..

On the other hand the thrid paragraph kinda sounds like what I was gonna do anyway.. gradually of course.

I think I could jsut bench at home and maybe practise the powerclean (if its ok to do this with spinlock barbell?) , follow this with 1 or 2 sandbag movements and a couple of dumbell movements from infinte Intensity and I think legs would be fresher for the gym that evening, than if I did squats in the middle of the week/and/or deadlifts which I would just save for the saturday session.

Once my aerobic base is built I would maintain it with one LSS run a week and would do sprints once a week and intervals once a week. With 2 strength sessions a week this should be plenty.

Something I have yet to decide is whether or not I want to compete. I would like to speak with someone here about whether 4 days of mma training a week is adequate for competition when you dont have a previous base.

How important is it to have a specific belt for BJJ, or getting additional mauy thai work? bearing in mind I would only ever want to compette at ammy level, but I dont really know what I would be up against.. is it risky to only do the mma training if that makes sense?

There is only one school for bjj in the city and its far as shit, there is a mauy (cant spell!) thai gym further out fro mthe mma gym too.. maybe eventually if I decide to compete I ought to travel to the bjj school and do 3 days a week and just keep one day of mma for the sparring/standup. Once I reach a certain belt (I have no idea which) scale it back to 2 days a week and reintroduce 3 of the mma days and maybe 1 day at the thai gym if I can fit it in jsut to sharpen up on kicking technique wise (something a lil more indepth than I might otherwise get at the mma gym?).. would be talknig 6 days a week of training by this point and would probably only be able to make 1 strength session a week, but this is from the perspective that mroe time training skills would be better if I wanted to train to compete say 6 months from where im currently at.. I have looked at some threads here about strength routines but would like advice from any and all who fight so I know how to balance training if I decide to fight.

Well, the fact of the matter is your plan had you tapering volume, and it had you switching to exercises that are natural more and more intense. That's going to predispose you to peaking which wasn't your stated goal. Your goal seems to be; build a base, and transition to a build phase that you can train in for the long term (6-12 months?). Your training plan was not good for that particular goal.

If your goal is to train full-time then you should just start training full-time. Spend a few weeks going though the motions. Introduce all the exercises at a very low intensity without worrying about improving. Then slowly start building everything proportionally until you find that equilibrium point that's just before over-training.

 

[Pro Killer]

I think your overthinking too much personally with your different goals trying to improve them all at the same time. In my experience people who plan everything out months in advance usually end up quitting after a couple of weeks they either enjoy planning so much they keep changing routines always thinking the next one will be better, or they think because they've got a plan the training will be easy and then when they find out you still have to put the work in and grind everyday it's too hard.

Basically just go and fucking train for a few months then re-asses your strengths and weaknesses and form a plan.
Think the main point I'm trying to say is someone at your level doesnt need to plan so much, your not an Olympic athlete you will see improvements in yourself through training pretty much anything. I don't like the fact that your waiting to go back to your MMA gym until you get in shape again, go back to the training now and that will help you develop an aerobic base. (It's cool to say aerobic base because Joel does in his book right?)

Also Ross' routines are more on the conditioning side of things as I understand it, your not going to develop max strength using sandbags and dumb bells you need to lift heavy. 2 days a week of starting strength style would get your best bet but What is your motivation for strength though? If it's for MMA purposes then I'd focus more on conditioning anyway

 

[Pitbull]

Getting in shape before starting MMA is stupid. You would be wasting 2-3 months that could be spent learning and getting in shape there.

I wonder how interested and committed you are. Most people who were serious would have been in the gym straight away. Trying to plan S&C for when you' finally training and even when you might compete is also stupid. You don't know how be able to cope with the MMA classes, how fast will you be able to recover. No one on a forum can make a plan for you at this stage.

Get in the gym and speak to your trainer. You will soon be able to decide if you need more BBJ or more Muay thai and how much S&C you need. Focus on getting better, not doing more.

 

[shitgenericname16]

I think your overthinking too much personally with your different goals trying to improve them all at the same time. In my experience people who plan everything out months in advance usually end up quitting after a couple of weeks they either enjoy planning so much they keep changing routines always thinking the next one will be better, or they think because they've got a plan the training will be easy and then when they find out you still have to put the work in and grind everyday it's too hard.

Basically just go and fucking train for a few months then re-asses your strengths and weaknesses and form a plan.
Think the main point I'm trying to say is someone at your level doesnt need to plan so much, your not an Olympic athlete you will see improvements in yourself through training pretty much anything. I don't like the fact that your waiting to go back to your MMA gym until you get in shape again, go back to the training now and that will help you develop an aerobic base. (It's cool to say aerobic base because Joel does in his book right?)

Also Ross' routines are more on the conditioning side of things as I understand it, your not going to develop max strength using sandbags and dumb bells you need to lift heavy. 2 days a week of starting strength style would get your best bet but What is your motivation for strength though? If it's for MMA purposes then I'd focus more on conditioning anyway

Im sorry but the idea that you cant build max strength with sandbags and dumbells is frankly preposterous. Resistance is resistance when all is said and done and low reps are going to equate to improvements in max strength whether its from a barbell a sandbag or a giant rock..

My reasoning for "Possibly" using a one day barbells and one day sandbags/dumbells (bearing in mind I havent chosen which movements from II to include at that point yet) but its mainly because I would be lifting on one of the days I am in the gym (gym in evening so lifting session would be in the a.m.) so things like squats (cant perform deadlifts at home) might impede on the legs a little when trying to put forth your best in the gym where you are learning that same evening.. I would still be willing to bench press on this day (but then im starting to question what use this exercise is for fighting anyway), PERHAPS I could practise powercleans too at low weight but it would be with a spinlock barbell. Other movements could be db clean and press or sandbag clean and press etc.. its a different type of strength with sandbags.. apparently of particular use to those grappling.

The barbell day would then be on a saturday where I dont have to worry so much about being fresh for the gym that evening. I hope that clarifies where I was comnig from.

I certainly dont enjoy planning I hate every aspect of it to be quite honest. It all comes back to the fact that "its down to me".. which unfortunately is going to include some form of planning.

Rosses book for the record do in fact give pretty detailed information about strength training for fighters (im aware a lot of you here are hobbyists) and periodisation is talked about a lot and this idea of peaking.. I think your coming from the perspective of standard periodisation.. Rosses methods favour both conjugate and concurrent methods but with frequent (I think monthly) back off periods. Rather than changing everything all the time and losing gains.

My plan was basically to build a base for both aerobic capacity and strength.. begginer shit. After that just "Maintain" strength for sport specific purposes WHETHER OR NOT THIS CAN BE DONE WITH 1 OR 2 STRENGTH WORKOUTS IS OPEN TO DEBATE BTW. Maintaining cardio also with a single weekly run and throw in a sprint and interval session gradually, id only be lifting twice a week by this point, or perhaps even once to maintain and throw in a warrior challenge on the other day. Couple this with some back off periods and then if I decide to fight taper things down the week before the fight.. I am not the brightest tool in the box but I see no flaws in this?

The standard periodisation method that seems to be favoured here from what I have read is a little outdated.. and seems a bit too complicated to be honest..

 

[shitgenericname16]

Getting in shape before starting MMA is stupid. You would be wasting 2-3 months that could be spent learning and getting in shape there.

I wonder how interested and committed you are. Most people who were serious would have been in the gym straight away. Trying to plan S&C for when you' finally training and even when you might compete is also stupid. You don't know how be able to cope with the MMA classes, how fast will you be able to recover. No one on a forum can make a plan for you at this stage.

Get in the gym and speak to your trainer. You will soon be able to decide if you need more BBJ or more Muay thai and how much S&C you need. Focus on getting better, not doing more.

I am talking about going back after a long lay off actually..
Money is tight and right now I may as well focus on building the qualitys that I didnt spend enough time on while I was there.

I am interested and commited enough that I seek advice on an mma training site....

 

[Genghiz]

TS, your plan is good and simple enough imo.

Base building + max strength for a couple months.

Then MMA with a little extra conditioning and slightly less focus on max strength.

It's a well thought out calculated approach. Anyone that's spent time doing aerobic base building for MA won't argue it's a great way to level-up your game.

To answer your question, do your base building with 3 x week starting strength. When you start MMA switch to tactical barbell (fighter template) or a stripped down 531 two day. I personally have had much more success with Fighter template because of the lift frequency and progression style, but both are a great fit with high demand sports.

 

[JosephDredd]

Check out Simple Strength. Everyone seems to be describing it without realizing it. A handful of compound lifts, sets and reps aimed at minimizing fatigue so you can train your sport, then use your sport for conditioning.

 

[vrain]

You could just do tactical barbell, in particular the 2 day fighter program while doing the base building runs.
It really is just a lower volume starting strength when you think about it.
Once you get you back into the mma training you can mix up the runs and throw in a couple short conditioning finishers if you still feels that lacking at your MMA training.

Starting strength is just a program. Tactical barbell or similar with a good selection of exercises, will get you to the exact same place as starting strength. Genghiz above, did ross's 50 day II program, but substituted Tac barbell's 2 day fighter for the strength work.
I think this might be an excellent approach for you after the base building. Check the training logs.

I did II 50 Day + Tactical Barbell, awesome combo for all the reasons already mentioned. Ross's conditioning stuff is top notch but the strength training isn't progressive, just dumbbell work. So I sub'd in TB on the strength days. More info in my log, and if you head over to Rosstraining there's a bunch of TB/II journals there too.

 

[vrain]

TS, you might also want to check out Joel Jamieson's Ultimate MMA Conditioning and/or Tactical Barbell-2. Both outline aerobic base building plans structured around strength & skills training.