I'm sorry, Jones is nowhere near the GOAT level

[Bad Karate]

The amount of effort you Jones haters put into trying to discredit his legacy proves the greatness of his legacy and you're too dumb to realize it.

 

[Captain Herb]

I'm saying I think some modern fans neglect how much Jones has accomplished in his career, because what he's accomplished recently has been relatively modest. That is, they don't remember how much he accomplished early in his career, which was phenomenal.

Most fighters generally have their peak success at a much later age than Jones, and sometimes LHWs and HWs have it even later...Jones did his heavy lifting early.

That's true, but there's also this phenomenon among his fans to assess his current capabilities as if he was in his prime 5-10 years ago. So there is recency bias but also nostalgia that is equally inaccurate.

 

[fzoid4454]

If this were true, then every WADA/USADA-tested athlete who had the misfortune of having unknowingly ingested turinabol-tainted dick pills would be pulsing for years. Obviously that's not the case.

Actually, it was the number of cases arising like that which caused them to be more open to the possibilities for Jones.

There are a TON of cases. Also, the "dick pill" defense was not for Turniabol, that was for clomiphene and letrozole, and the contamination was confirmed for that result. Kind of makes the FDA-case for why people shouldn't buy shady, unregulated and illegal dick pills off the Internet.

And, again, it's not a catch-all get-out-of-trouble card. The cases where they're pretty sure that the "pulsing" effect is happening are ones where someone is being regularly and frequently tested, aren't popping for the drug itself, the primary or secondary metabolite, either, during that time, but then suddenly this tertiary metabolite shows up in trace amounts. How does it get there if they've tested clean, regularly, for the substances that create it? Must have been there before, is the possibility.

So, if I am actively using, I'm not going to test clean every couple of weeks for it, and any M3 results are also going to have other results along with it, either in the same test, or earlier.

 

[kflo]

If this were true, then every WADA/USADA-tested athlete who had the misfortune of having unknowingly ingested turinabol-tainted dick pills would be pulsing for years. Obviously that's not the case.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[SouthpawSouthernFist]

"Roided to the gills" does not have a variety of meaning, intended or otherwise. It has a very singular meaning. That fact that people are willing to use it in situations where it doesn't apply doesn't change the intended meaning.



LOL. But you were butt-hurt over my questioning your reading ability?


Right. The complete change in fight strategy, as implemented by his fight team, would have NOTHING to do with that.

A change in fight strategy has nothing to do with someone's physical gifts, no. He was trying his hardest in both cases with much different results.

And let me know when "roided to the gills" gets added to Webster's dictionary! Until then, I'll just assume you're full of shite.

But for real, that's what your basing your whole argument on? That "roided to the gills" has one singular definition? Fuckin LOL

 

[kflo]

https://theathletic.com/3256364/2022/04/20/mlb-changes-ped-oral-turinabol-dhcmt/?amp=1

 

[Captain Herb]

Actually, it was the number of cases arising like that which caused them to be more open to the possibilities for Jones.

There are a TON of cases. Also, the "dick pill" defense was not for Turniabol, that was for clomiphene and letrozole, and the contamination was confirmed for that result. Kind of makes the FDA-case for why people shouldn't buy shady, unregulated and illegal dick pills off the Internet.

And, again, it's not a catch-all get-out-of-trouble card. The cases where they're pretty sure that the "pulsing" effect is happening are ones where someone is being regularly and frequently tested, aren't popping for the drug itself, the primary or secondary metabolite, either, during that time, but then suddenly this tertiary metabolite shows up in trace amounts. How does it get there if they've tested clean, regularly, for the substances that create it? Must have been there before, is the possibility.

So, if I am actively using, I'm not going to test clean every couple of weeks for it, and any M3 results are also going to have other results along with it, either in the same test, or earlier.

What was his excuse for the t-bol? I forget. In any case, no, he was never cleared by USADA for anything. He twice 'won' an arbitration that he paid for. Once, he convinced them that he hadn't knowingly ingested anything bad, and the second time he convinced them that he could help them catch other cheats, so they knocked 3 years off of his 4 year sentence.(USADA did). There were not 'a ton' of 'suspected' pulsing cases, there were a couple that they pointed to and they were most likely the result of the athlete roiding to the gills previously. The biggest argument against the pulsing idea, in my mind, is when WADA went back and re-tested samples for athletes from the 2008 Olympics with the new technology. They found dozens and dozens of turinabol cheats. Why then, have these athletes not gone on to pulse indefinitely? Why are they not part of this pulsing theory that was concocted solely for Jon Jones and the UFC?

 

[XNYHCX]

GOATs are in your head and nowhere else.

It's a bad lense by which to view the world.

 

[Captain Herb]

Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

And again you have no response of any value to anyone.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

“I’m still mad that Jon beat my favorite fighter(s)!”

~ OP

Jones is the best fighter that ever entered the UFC easily GOAT, Love or hate this guy is the King.

Youngest world champion with 23 years, longest-champion in top without defeats, Destroyed 6 former world champions in ufc, never lost by points also never been KO no one in this world could sub Jones.

 

[kflo]

And again you have no response of any value to anyone.

you aren’t knowledgeable on the topic.

read. Learn.

There are many other athletes testing positive for traces of m3 for long periods of time. You just dismiss the information you don’t like.

you just repeat that pulsing for a long time must mean you cycled tbol for a long time. But you’re just making that up.

you repeat that everyone who has ever had m3 in their system will have the same excretion pattern for the same duration. But you’re making that up.

again it’s ok to think your hypothesis is reasonable. But you act as if you have facts. You don’t. You think you know. But you don’t.

 

[ThunderStruck]

they don’t test for specific steroids or metabolites in urine tests. If there are substances they flag.

That has nothing to do with what I said. And doesn't USADA take blood samples?

 

[ferrisjso]

The amount of effort you Jones haters put into trying to discredit his legacy proves the greatness of his legacy and you're too dumb to realize it.

Jones's greatest accomplishment is getting people as mad as he gets them over a sport they have no vested interest in.

He's an inspiration to anyone who has haters because it shows you what haters frustration looks like.

 

[Captain Herb]

you aren’t knowledgeable on the topic.

read. Learn.

There are many other athletes testing positive for traces of m3 for long periods of time. You just dismiss the information you don’t like.

you just repeat that pulsing for a long time must mean you cycled tbol for a long time. But you’re just making that up.

you repeat that everyone who has ever had m3 in their system will have the same excretion pattern for the same duration. But you’re making that up.

again it’s ok to think your hypothesis is reasonable. But you act as if you have facts. You don’t. You think you know. But you don’t.

There are not 'many' there are a few that they pointed to to try to substantiate their wild and novel theory. If it was the case that if one had ingested any amount of turinabol in the past, most would also be pulsing for years like Jon Jones. Do you have evidence that he is different and special in this regard. Is his physiology radically different from the average human. Why hasn't USADA made a note of this? What happened to the dozens of Olympic athletes from 2008 and 2012 who tested positive for t-bol? What happened in their subsequent tests? Surely they were pulsing just like Jon Jones so why is that not part of the supporting evidence for Jon's pulsing theory? Why did we never hear another thing about them?

 

[acannxr]

It's quite amazing that we can have a subject as thoroughly discussed as this, and that you can be so completely wrong and out of date on this. Those were the earliest, hypothetical estimates. We know those are wrong because when Jones popped for the M3, he had been regularly tested, leading up to that in the months before, and didn't test positive for Turniabol, M1, or M2 metabolites. If there was truly only a 40-50 day window, it would have been impossible for him to pop for M3 when he did, but not pop for any of the others leading up to that.

Except, Jones wasn't tested at all from Oct 2017 to Jul 2018, and when they started testing him again he popped, so clearly you know very little about the case.

And the short term metabolites are useless in detecting turinabol:

Well I don't think 16-Oxo-dhcmt Metabolite II was even screened for at the time or if it is even screened for now. It's not listed in the new metabolites added for 2013. Maybe it's an old metabolite.........if so it's a pretty poor indicator if it only caught one person.

Here is a paper from 2014 talking about the statistics from the Cologne Lab.

https://www.doping.nl/media/kb/7379/Geyer et al 2014.pdf

@acannxr I think you should add this to the OP to challenge the ridiculous line of reasoning "there were no short term metabolites so he is therefore innocent". As shown above short term metabolites are nearly useless in detecting DHCMT use; Including three new long term metabolites in the screening resulted in an 82 fold increase in detecting DHCMT amongst routine doping samples at the Cologne Lab.

-

Did he? On whom? What cases were made? This is just Sherdog gossip/speculation. Basically, USADA popped him because of the unspecific, vague nature of what was and was not proven by the results. He didn't get popped for four years because they can't point to any specific in-competition use.

Again, you only highlight how little you know about the case because USADA said in their official report that Jones was going to get 4 years for his in-competition use but snitched in order to get a reduced sentence.

You COULD, because of masking agents. Nowhere am I stating definitively that he wasn't. When the ration is 14:1, it means EXACTLY what I think and say it means. Proof positive, roided to the gills.

And again, that ratio doesn't mean what you think it means, because it's not an indicator of how much steroids someone is using.

The thing is, you didn't say "Jones could have been," you stated that he was.

The thing is, I didn't say he definitively wasn't. That's a straw man argument you are knocking down. I said you don't have the hard evidence that would allow you to go from saying "could" to "definitely was."

But that didn't stop you from saying "definitely was."

I never said he was, I said that someone with the levels of a castrated man (like Jones) could still be roided to the gills, which is not a proclamation on Jones specifically.

Your eagerness to ignore the specific details and make the more broad, unsupported, dramatic proclamations is what I am talking about. You're making very strong, positive, specific claims about things that maybe, might be, could be, but we don't have the kind of specific evidence to make a specific statement.

Stop projecting, because as I noted above you clearly don't know the specific details of this case. What's ridiculous is that you're debating this topic with far too much confidence despite not knowing the most minute details that have already been compiled here on Sherdog.

 

[kflo]

That has nothing to do with what I said. And doesn't USADA take blood samples?

It has alot to do with what you said. Their urine tests are always testing for steroids and steroid markers. Not some of them.

and yes, they also do blood tests. The blood tests do not test for m3 metabolites. Those would be noted separately. The predominant tests are urine.

 

[kflo]

Except, Jones wasn't tested at all from Oct 2017 to Jul 2018, and when they started testing him again he popped, so clearly you know very little about the case.


Again, you only highlight how little you know about the case because USADA said in their official report that Jones was going to get 4 years for his in-competition use but snitched in order to get a reduced sentence.


And again, that ratio doesn't mean what you think it means, because it's not an indicator of how much steroids someone is using.


I never said he was, I said that someone with the levels of a castrated man (like Jones) could still be roided to the gills, which is not a proclamation on Jones specifically.


Stop projecting, because as I noted above you clearly don't know the specific details of this case. What's ridiculous is that you're debating this topic with far too much confidence despite not knowing the most minute details that have already been compiled here on Sherdog.

Lol. This guy continues to act like an expert while peddling the lie that m3 is detectable for only 40-50 days. Comical.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

No. Because he popped, meaning whatever he was taking, it was more than what everyone else was taking, if you believe everyone else is taking other stuff.

His reign during his prime was also very underwhelming, as he fought tiny or burnt out LHWs.

In short, take away credit from DC wins, give him a very poor score for level of competition and dominance, and his GOAT ranking plummets.

You can’t “take away” the DC wins and pretend they didn’t happen. How many guys in history could roid up and beat DC?

 

[acannxr]

Then when the scientists come out and exonerated Jon for the second test now the science is wacky and it's a conspiracy to keep Jon fighting.

The science did not exonerate Jones; that pulsing theory was based purely on a clomiphene study (and yet despite Jones having taken clomiphene in the past he never pulsed for it).

 

[Bend NvR Break]

The science did not exonerate Jones; that pulsing theory was based purely on a clomiphene study (and yet despite Jones having taken clomiphene in the past he never pulsed for it).

Just say you hate Jon. It's easier.