I'm sorry, Jones is nowhere near the GOAT level

[fzoid4454]

The detection window for the M3 metabolite of turinabol is only 40-50 days, which means Jones was repeatedly ingesting the compound long after his failed tests in 2017 and 2018.

It's quite amazing that we can have a subject as thoroughly discussed as this, and that you can be so completely wrong and out of date on this. Those were the earliest, hypothetical estimates. We know those are wrong because when Jones popped for the M3, he had been regularly tested, leading up to that in the months before, and didn't test positive for Turniabol, M1, or M2 metabolites. If there was truly only a 40-50 day window, it would have been impossible for him to pop for M3 when he did, but not pop for any of the others leading up to that.

Jones didn't pay the price of a 4 year suspension (which is what USADA was going to give him) because he snitched.

Did he? On whom? What cases were made? This is just Sherdog gossip/speculation. Basically, USADA popped him because of the unspecific, vague nature of what was and was not proven by the results. He didn't get popped for four years because they can't point to any specific in-competition use.

Someone could have the T/E ratio of a castrated male (like Jones did) and still be roided to the gills; that ratio doesn't mean what you think it means.

You COULD, because of masking agents. Nowhere am I stating definitively that he wasn't. When the ration is 14:1, it means EXACTLY what I think and say it means. Proof positive, roided to the gills.

The thing is, you didn't say "Jones could have been," you stated that he was.

The thing is, I didn't say he definitively wasn't. That's a straw man argument you are knocking down. I said you don't have the hard evidence that would allow you to go from saying "could" to "definitely was."

But that didn't stop you from saying "definitely was."

Your eagerness to ignore the specific details and make the more broad, unsupported, dramatic proclamations is what I am talking about. You're making very strong, positive, specific claims about things that maybe, might be, could be, but we don't have the kind of specific evidence to make a specific statement.

So, looking at what I'm actually saying about what you said, your defense did zero to knock down anything that I said.

Except Shogun was passed his prime, his injuries to his left knee were quite extensive by that point:

Well, yes, his peak was clearly at the beginning of his career when he took PRIDE by storm. That doesn't mean he was a lousy, feeble, washed-up fighter. He was able to take the belt from Machida and beat him up in two fights, prior to which Machida had never lost a single round of any fight.

He was clearly still an elite fighter. Other than the injuries in the photo that didn't happen for several years, the only relevant one was the "rumored partial ACL tear." Do you know that another name is for a partial ligament tear?

A sprain. When Jones took him out, he had the belt, and got it by fighting at an elite level that no one else in the LHW division was able to, at that time. And Jones went through him like wet toilet paper. That was legit, and that's why Jones is talked about as GOAT.

 

[SouthpawSouthernFist]

First of all, that would be "roll," not "role." Find anywhere where I said he didn't pop.

You need to slow your own roll, and learn basic reading comprehension, because what you're claiming I was saying, in no way resembles any of the points I was actually making.

And, no, it's not just always positive or not, as I demonstrated with the Overreem example. Sometimes we can only say use or not use, or detection or not of markers, which is what happened with Jones, WHICH IS MY ENTIRE POINT. My criticism is with OP for making the "how much" statement, when we absolutely have no idea about it.

And other times, we can see how much a threshold for substances is exceeded by, as with Overreem who had the 14:1 testosterone to epitestosterone ratio. That's more than just a positive vs non-result. You're simply wrong about that. In that kind of a case, I'd have no problem with that kind of characterization.

Secondly, you haven't said ANYTHING that refutes what I said. Jones got popped, twice. That's all we can say about it. Which is exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying that "Jones barely popped," I'm saying that pointing to the two DC fights and characterizing that as "he was juiced to the gills" when we didn't get that kind of test result is wildly hysterical and hyperbolic.

It's funny you accuse me of basic reading comprehension problems when you completely ignore the core of my post.

Your simple-minded comparison of blood markers doesn't work - things are a bit more complicated than that. It's not just some kind of 1:1 relationship of the ratio to athletic performance, particularly because people can use multiple drugs which mask what is going on in the blood.

I'm saying the test should be and basically IS used as a positive/negative thing. Either there is conclusive evidence of PED use, or there is not. The levels are irrelevant, because they don't tell the full story anyway.

If someone is cheating, they're cheating. End of story.

And Jon's athletic performance taking a nose dive after popping strongly suggests his edge in competition was due to drugs.

 

[fzoid4454]

It worked until he fought actually good boxers. Lewis and others proved that.

You can't say that, because all the leeches around Tyson, none of whom where competent boxing trainers, had sucked all the lifeblood from Tyson's boxing career after he cut ties with Rooney.

Could it have been that Tyson wouldn't have been able to manage the physicality, boxing and power of Lewis, even in his prime? Maybe, but it wasn't "proven" by Lewis because the Tyson that fought Lewis wasn't even in the same area code as prime Tyson.

And don't get me wrong, I think Lewis is an all-time great (and I think Tyson would have been, too), who had a couple of irritating lapses where he thought he'd walk through opponents without training properly for them. I don't think I've ever seen a fighter legitimately and unequivocally ducked the way Lewis was. Both Bowe and Tyson GAVE UP BELTS rather than make mandatory defenses against Lewis. He terrified them, IMO.

But the Lewis/Tyson fight doesn't really tell us much about how a fight with both of them, at their best, would have looked.

 

[WildShrimper]

If he's not close, then no one is close. Unless you count only people who haven't been busted for PEDS.

 

[Captain Herb]

People get a little weird on Jones because he was so extraordinary at such a young age, and has barely added value to his career at ages (say 30-35) where some fighters are in their prime or close and adding the most value. He's a good example of that adage that it's "fight years" that matter beyond chronological age.

But you can't discredit the relative lack of value these last handful of years without crediting him with doing amazing work at an age when most fighters are basically ramping up their career.

For a point of comparison:

At age 28, Fedor was in the middle of his 2nd (aborted) and 3rd fights with Big Nog
At age 28, Anderson was getting triangled by Takase in Pride
At age 28, GSP has finished his 2nd defense of his 2nd title reign, beating BJ Penn

At age 28, Jones beat DC in DC 1, and finished his 8th straight title defense in the UFC.

The only fighter close to Jones in terms of chronological age to MMA accomplishments (that I can think of) is Aldo, and even Aldo had a three year head start in his career (starting at 18 vs. 21).

This is leaving PED issues to the side. I can understand someone who holds the position of DQing him on the basis of PEDs/cheating.

Not sure that the age when they were in their prime has anything to do with it. Is a child actor always a better actor just because they did it early?

 

[Captain Herb]

You can't say that, because all the leeches around Tyson, none of whom where competent boxing trainers, had sucked all the lifeblood from Tyson's boxing career after he cut ties with Rooney.

Could it have been that Tyson wouldn't have been able to manage the physicality, boxing and power of Lewis, even in his prime? Maybe, but it wasn't "proven" by Lewis because the Tyson that fought Lewis wasn't even in the same area code as prime Tyson.

And don't get me wrong, I think Lewis is an all-time great (and I think Tyson would have been, too), who had a couple of irritating lapses where he thought he'd walk through opponents without training properly for them. I don't think I've ever seen a fighter legitimately and unequivocally ducked the way Lewis was. Both Bowe and Tyson GAVE UP BELTS rather than make mandatory defenses against Lewis. He terrified them, IMO.

But the Lewis/Tyson fight doesn't really tell us much about how a fight with both of them, at their best, would have looked.

What about The Real Deal? That was within his prime, no?

 

[fzoid4454]

Your simple-minded comparison of blood markers doesn't work - things are a bit more complicated than that. It's not just some kind of 1:1 relationship of the ratio to athletic performance, particularly because people can use multiple drugs which mask what is going on in the blood.

Again, you're completely missing what I'm saying, which means the part about reading comprehension is right on the mark.

So, and I'll type it more slowly so you can follow -

If you want to throw around terms like "roided to the gills," as opposed to "popped for PED use," then you need a result with a specific ratio like 14:1 T/E to make a statement like that. There's no equivocating what a result like that means.

Where you seem to be highly confused is when I talk about Jones not having that ratio, as if I am claiming it means he wasn't using, wasn't juiced, or that it was a lesser offense.

WE DON'T KNOW. It could be he wasn't, was to a lesser extent, masked or hid it. Absolutely.

MY CRITICISM IS FOR THROWING AROUND THAT PHRASE. I'm not the one who is making claims of more offense, less offense. You are, and you don't have anything to back that up.

As far as you WANTING it to be positive/negative, actually that is how it works. Overeem popping with a 14:1 ratio is a single offense/violation, that counts the same as Jones pulsing picograms (the first time) of the M3 metabolite, so I'm not even sure what you think your arguing about here.

All of the things you seem to be taking exception to in what I wrote don't actually exist in anything I wrote.

I was saying that, IF you want to throw around terms like that, there should at least be the kind of result that actually would support making such a statement.

Saying that in no way is an attempt to exonerate Jones, it's merely pushback against drama-queen nonsense.

 

[fzoid4454]

What about The Real Deal? That was within his prime, no?

When he lost to Douglas, he had already dropped a bit from his best. He wasn't training as hard, his trainers sucked (remember the condom with tepid water instead of and EndSwell they used on his eye in the Douglas fight? WTF?), he was partying and using cocaine quite a bit at that time.

After spending time in prison, inactive, he fell off that much more. He was faded against Holyfield, though he was still a mid-Top Ten fighter. I think Holyfield's strategy would have been pretty effective and frustrating against a prime Tyson. That would have been interesting to see - if a prime Tyson could make Holyfield eat a fight-altering shot before Holyfield could tie him back up.

By time he fought Lewis, he was pretty shot, IMO.

My claim to fame-adjacency - I saw Tyson fight in the Empire State Games as an amateur. In the video of the gold medal match that Tyson posted on YouTube, you can see my buddies and I, clearly, in the crowd for most of the action.

 

[Captain Herb]

Again, you're completely missing what I'm saying, which means the part about reading comprehension is right on the mark.

So, and I'll type it more slowly so you can follow -

If you want to throw around terms like "roided to the gills," as opposed to "popped for PED use," then you need a result with a specific ratio like 14:1 T/E to make a statement like that. There's no equivocating what a result like that means.

Where you seem to be highly confused is when I talk about Jones not having that ratio, as if I am claiming it means he wasn't using, wasn't juiced, or that it was a lesser offense.

WE DON'T KNOW. It could be he wasn't, was to a lesser extent, masked or hid it. Absolutely.

MY CRITICISM IS OP THROWING AROUND THAT PHRASE. I'm not the one who is making claims of more offense, less offense. OP is, and I'm saying he shouldn't.

As far as you WANTING it to be positive/negative, actually that is how it works. Overeem popping with a 14:1 ratio is a single offense/violation, that counts the same as Jones pulsing picograms (the first time) of the M3 metabolite, so I'm not even sure what you think your arguing about here.

All of the things you seem to be taking exception to in what I wrote don't actually exist in anything I wrote.

I was saying that, IF OP wants to throw around terms like that, there should at least be the kind of result that actually would support making such a statement.

Saying that in no way is an attempt to exonerate Jones, it's merely pushback against drama-queen nonsense.

I know that you're in a discussion with someone else, but let me just point out that when he started "pulsing" for turinabol due to the improved testing, he said he might test positive for the NEXT 7 YEARS lol. How much turinabol do you have to take to test positive for years and years afterwards? I'm guessing not just a little bit.

 

[fzoid4454]

Not sure that the age when they were in their prime has anything to do with it. Is a child actor always a better actor just because they did it early?

With Jones, he was looking to impress, set the world on fire, and dominate.

Even though he won the Gus fight, clearly, he took a ton of physical damage that he never did before. Between that and the Winklejohn/Jackson M.O. of not taking unnecessary risks, his style very quickly changed to fighting safe, and doing enough to bank rounds. Once he had a lot more to lose, the emphasis became not losing it, as opposed to taking the fights.

 

[SouthpawSouthernFist]

If you want to throw around terms like "roided to the gills," as opposed to "popped for PED use," then you need a result with a specific ratio like 14:1 T/E to make a statement like that. There's no equivocating what a result like that means.

LOL... you're joking, right?

Roided to the gills, a phrase commonly used with a variety of intended meanings, is now reduced to meaning a very specific thing about blood markers? Why, because you said so? Ridiculous.

Didn't even read the rest of your post after that trash.

When someone is ragdolling Olympic wrestler DC at one point, then within a matter of a couple years is having significant difficulty taking down Anthony Fucking Smith, all because they were forced to stop juicing, that means they were "roided to the gills", at least to me.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

Not sure that the age when they were in their prime has anything to do with it. Is a child actor always a better actor just because they did it early?

I'm saying I think some modern fans neglect how much Jones has accomplished in his career, because what he's accomplished recently has been relatively modest. That is, they don't remember how much he accomplished early in his career, which was phenomenal.

Most fighters generally have their peak success at a much later age than Jones, and sometimes LHWs and HWs have it even later...Jones did his heavy lifting early.

 

[kflo]

I know that you're in a discussion with someone else, but let me just point out that when he started "pulsing" for turinabol due to the improved testing, he said he might test positive for the NEXT 7 YEARS lol. How much turinabol do you have to take to test positive for years and years afterwards? I'm guessing not just a little bit.

That’s right. You are completely guessing. You have zero idea how it works.

 

[fzoid4454]

I know that you're in a discussion with someone else, but let me just point out that when he started "pulsing" for turinabol due to the improved testing, he said he might test positive for the NEXT 7 YEARS lol. How much turinabol do you have to take to test positive for years and years afterwards? I'm guessing not just a little bit.

That's not the way it works, I'm pretty sure. If it was a matter of the M3 degrading at a steady rate and there being enough in his system, with more sensitive testing, to keep being detected, that would be one thing.

If the metabolite doesn't degrade and break down, but is stored in the fatty tissues, and leaves the system when the fat cells are broken down and they go back into circulation, at which time they get excreted, then it's not about how much there was originally. There's a reason why he only seems to pop after a weight cut - fat cells which get left alone are finally burned, and, remember, the threshold being detected is units per volume of urine. If you're dehydrated at the end of a cut, the concentration of everything that's in the urine is going to be amplified by the lack of water volume.

So, here's my semi-informed, pulled from my ass speculation, based on a somewhat scientific understanding of the subject - Let's say he decided to stay at 205, didn't party and add on much extra fat between fights, and had to battle to get to 205, chances are that he's probably metabolize close to all of the fat tissue that originally stored the M3 metabolite and would eventually stop testing positive, because those would circulate and get flushed in his urine.

Since he puts on weight between fights, doesn't live the most spartan lifestyle, and is even moving up in weight, there's a lot of other fat around to burn, which means some of the "original" fat hanging on to M3 will be around longer. Who knows when he'll be done? What we do know is they're seeing this across sports, which is part of the reason they changed their thinking on what they saw in Jones.

 

[Captain Herb]

With Jones, he was looking to impress, set the world on fire, and dominate.

Even though he won the Gus fight, clearly, he took a ton of physical damage that he never did before. Between that and the Winklejohn/Jackson M.O. of not taking unnecessary risks, his style very quickly changed to fighting safe, and doing enough to bank rounds. Once he had a lot more to lose, the emphasis became not losing it, as opposed to taking the fights.

And it worked. He was able to maintain his reputation--for some even to this day--based on the fighter he was 10 years ago. He has done everything correctly to confound his critics. Besides all the criminal behavior and getting away with it, he also picked the perfect time to go out on top. He taunted his haters by saying "you will never see me get knocked out", and true to his word, he put down his belt and left MMA.

 

[kflo]

LOL... you're joking, right?

Roided to the gills, a phrase commonly used with a variety of intended meanings, is now reduced to meaning a very specific thing about blood markers? Why, because you said so? Ridiculous.

Didn't even read the rest of your post after that trash.

When someone is ragdolling Olympic wrestler DC at one point, then within a matter of a couple years is having significant difficulty taking down Anthony Fucking Smith, all because they were forced to stop juicing, that means they were "roided to the gills", at least to me.

He dominated smith a lot more than he dominated dc physically.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

It's funny you accuse me of basic reading comprehension problems when you completely ignore the core of my post.

Your simple-minded comparison of blood markers doesn't work - things are a bit more complicated than that. It's not just some kind of 1:1 relationship of the ratio to athletic performance, particularly because people can use multiple drugs which mask what is going on in the blood.

I'm saying the test should be and basically IS used as a positive/negative thing. Either there is conclusive evidence of PED use, or there is not. The levels are irrelevant, because they don't tell the full story anyway.

If someone is cheating, they're cheating. End of story.

And Jon's athletic performance taking a nose dive after popping strongly suggests his edge in competition was due to drugs.

The problem with posts like this is that you use the science to convict and demonize Jon for his PED use.

Then when the scientists come out and exonerated Jon for the second test now the science is wacky and it's a conspiracy to keep Jon fighting.

You can't use the science to prove what you want then toss it out when it proves what your against.

 

[Chok Sok Te]

The bit where you ranked Conor above him was the final nail in the coffin for this absolute shit take for me personally.

 

[fzoid4454]

LOL... you're joking, right?

Roided to the gills, a phrase commonly used with a variety of intended meanings, is now reduced to meaning a very specific thing about blood markers? Why, because you said so? Ridiculous.

"Roided to the gills" does not have a variety of meaning, intended or otherwise. It has a very singular meaning. That fact that people are willing to use it in situations where it doesn't apply doesn't change the intended meaning.

Didn't even read the rest of your post after that trash.

LOL. But you were butt-hurt over my questioning your reading ability?

When someone is ragdolling Olympic wrestler DC at one point, then within a matter of a couple years is having significant difficulty taking down Anthony Fucking Smith, all because they were forced to stop juicing, that means they were "roided to the gills", at least to me.

Right. The complete change in fight strategy, as implemented by his fight team, would have NOTHING to do with that.

 

[Captain Herb]

That’s right. You are completely guessing. You have zero idea how it works.

That's not the way it works, I'm pretty sure. If it was a matter of the M3 degrading at a steady rate and there being enough in his system, with more sensitive testing, to keep being detected, that would be one thing.

If the metabolite doesn't degrade and break down, but is stored in the fatty tissues, and leaves the system when the fat cells are broken down and they go back into circulation, at which time they get excreted, then it's not about how much there was originally. There's a reason why he only seems to pop after a weight cut - fat cells which get left alone are finally burned, and, remember, the threshold being detected is units per volume of urine. If you're dehydrated at the end of a cut, the concentration of everything that's in the urine is going to be amplified by the lack of water volume.

So, here's my semi-informed, pulled from my ass speculation, based on a somewhat scientific understanding of the subject - Let's say he decided to stay at 205, didn't party and add on much extra fat between fights, and had to battle to get to 205, chances are that he's probably metabolize close to all of the fat tissue that originally stored the M3 metabolite and would eventually stop testing positive, because those would circulate and get flushed in his urine.

Since he puts on weight between fights, doesn't live the most spartan lifestyle, and is even moving up in weight, there's a lot of other fat around to burn, which means some of the "original" fat hanging on to M3 will be around longer. Who knows when he'll be done? What we do know is they're seeing this across sports, which is part of the reason they changed their thinking on what they saw in Jones.

If this were true, then every WADA/USADA-tested athlete who had the misfortune of having unknowingly ingested turinabol-tainted dick pills would be pulsing for years. Obviously that's not the case.