If you think gane did enough in the 5th against ngannou…

[maximus__]

You seem to have confused what you want the criteria to say with what it actually says.

No I haven't. It's all out there and available including images like this used at conferences to clarify the difference between MMA and other combat sports.

 

[AstralPanda]

I thought Gane made 1 mistake that cost him the fight.

Always laugh at the “NNN won on a bad knee”. Dude showed zero signs of his knee being compromised and was shooting power doubles ffs.

Now I’m not disputing he needed a surgery (like many athletes do) just often they’re still able to compete and the entire “one knee Francis” is a major exaggeration to dismiss Gane winning on the feet.

He got the surgery he needed a month and a half after the fight. But the entire “he fought on one leg” was extremely hyperbolic by his camp. He made it through a 5 round fight showing zero signs of issues. We all know that the last thing you’ll do on bad knees is shoot doubles.

View attachment 1044578View attachment 1044579

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Francis was grinding his knees into the canvas quite a bit of the fight and bouncing around just fine on them. He wasn’t this fragile one legged Thiago Santos people made him out to be.

Pretty much everyone thinks the HW division is better than it actually is

That's why the idea of Jones being scared of Ngannou, someone he was probably the worst style matchup for out of anyone in mma history is so ridiculous.

He would've made it look easy, then people would've just discredited Frank like they did Gane.

"Taken down easily against Stipe, showed white belt level bjj, Taken down by novice Gane"

Emotions fuel many.

 

[Dr Fong]

No I haven't. It's all out there and available including images like this used at conferences to clarify the difference between MMA and other combat sports.

Read how impact (damage in that chart) is defined. Read duration. Read dominance. Read the parts about how impact is scored 'more so' than position in regards to effective grappling. Read how control matters.

Also note the complete mess of the chart substituting the word damage for impact, when the latter is what is in the official criteria, highlighting what a complete shitshow the whole thing is.

The thing is, in some respects impact actually makes better sense than the expanded definition of 'damage', which includes things that we wouldn't normally directly associate with damage, such as 'using grappling' to lead to the 'diminishing of energy'. In other respects it is just a weasle, legal substitute word.

Another issue is that failed submission attempts may cause absolutely zero impact/damage. They may sometimes even have a greater negative impact on the guy going for it. So in this case they should logically fall under aggression, not impact/damage. But the criteria tells us that effective aggression - literally defined as making attempts to finish the fight - (basically) doesn't matter. So which is it?

Lay n pray on the other hand can be very effective at negatively impacting your opponent.

There are many other vagaries and contradictions throughout the criteria that I could go through. First you have to understand how terrible the criteria actually is before you can have a serious discussion about it.

 

[Fedora Millionankles]

….Then that means jones is the lineal heavyweight champion


I know I’ll get some replies like “no way you think gane win the 5th, ngannou laid on top of him for half the round!”
but I think at this point there are a lot more people who realise actual impact wins fights, not smudging

Gane had more strikes, a takedown, and a submission attempt. Ngannou had a reversal and a few mosquito punches on the ground

So if you think gane win the 5th, then that means gane won the belt that night, defended it against tuivasa, and lost it to jones

I’m not a jones fan, maybe one of you has argued with me about him and can attest to that

But I don’t think a reversal and half guard is worth more than what gane did

Judges disagree with you.

 

[maximus__]

Read how impact (damage in that chart) is defined. Read duration. Read dominance. Read the parts about how impact is scored 'more so' than position in regards to effective grappling. Read how control matters.

Also note the complete mess of the chart substituting the word damage for impact, when the latter is what is in the official criteria, highlighting what a complete shitshow the whole thing is.

The thing is, in some respects impact actually makes better sense than the expanded definition of 'damage', which includes things that we wouldn't normally directly associate with damage, such as 'using grappling' to lead to the 'diminishing of energy'. In other respects it is just a weasle, legal substitute word.

Another issue is that failed submission attempts may cause absolutely zero impact/damage. They may sometimes even have a greater negative impact on the guy going for it. So in this case they should logically fall under aggression, not impact/damage. But the criteria tells us that effective aggression - literally defined as making attempts to finish the fight - (basically) doesn't matter. So which is it?

Lay n pray on the other hand can be very effective at negatively impacting your opponent.

There are many other vagaries and contradictions throughout the criteria that I could go through. First you have to understand how terrible the criteria actually is before you can have a serious discussion about it.

The chart is just a resource to explain the criteria. It was introduced to make it easier for other sport judges to understand and score MMA.
You said you knew the criteria so I didn't post the link, just the image.

ABC Introduces MMA “Scoring Ladder”

How do you score an MMA bout? The Association of Boxing Commissions and Combative Sports rules subcommittee has created a visual aid called the MMA “scoring ladder” to help make it easi…

combatsportslaw.com

It's not really hard to understand. MMA is an offensive based sport and rewards the person attacking. It doesn't matter if you are standing or on the ground. You should be able to win from the guard by the criteria, though it rarely happens without a finish. The scoring states it rewards the person who is trying to finish the fight, just because judges don't read doesn't mean it isn't written right there. They have now overcompensated by deciding a cut is an auto win. The criteria doesn't say that at all.


Same thing with the below image. It just takes the criteria and pops it into a graphic.

To use this fight as an example, Gane went for a sub in a close round.
Scenario 1: He loses position, the sub is reasonably easily defended and he loses a close 10-9 and the fight.
Scenario 2: Gane has a legit sub attempt, blows out Francis knee but he survives and takes top position but does no real damage. Round should go to Gane by the criteria.
(pretend I photoshopped Francis head onto Mokaev)

 

[HP_Nut]

Except we saw the round, and gane got greater reactions from ngannou than ngannou did from gane. Ngannous strikes were mostly on the ground, love taps that did nothing

A dominant grappling position is part of effective grappling. Half guard is a 50/50 position. You don’t get any points for getting into half guard, you do get points for a reversal.

You say the sub attempts didn’t seem close, so a reversal into a 50/50 position is more effective? No, it’s not, and you know it isn’t .Trying to finish the fight with submission attempts is more effective than camping in half guard


No, you don’t have to cancel the results of all fights post rule change. But do you have to look at the fights that were judged incorrectly under those rules and acknowledge the judges were mistaken in their decision

And yes, it is a controversial decision because gane won every aspect of the fight except reversals

I literally rewatched the 5th rd & have no idea where you came up with the idea that Gane's strikes got a loud pop from the crowd. I did not see Gane land any meaningful strikes at all in rd 5. Please go re-watch it. It wasn't considered a robbery, not then & not now. You take a rd where neither guy really did much & act like it was a robbery. I bet you before the fight that Gane knew based on the way its judged, that being on the bottom is viewed very negatively from a scoring standpoint, even when the guy on top isn't landed big huge strikes

 

[RonDante]

I literally rewatched the 5th rd & have no idea where you came up with the idea that Gane's strikes got a loud pop from the crowd. I did not see Gane land any meaningful strikes at all in rd 5. Please go re-watch it. It wasn't considered a robbery, not then & not now. You take a rd where neither guy really did much & act like it was a robbery. I bet you before the fight that Gane knew based on the way its judged, that being on the bottom is viewed very negatively from a scoring standpoint, even when the guy on top isn't landed big huge strikes

I didn’t say crowd pop, I said it got a reaction from ngannou. Gane shouldn’t need to know a second, unofficial scoring criteria becuase the judges should be using the actual scoring criteria