If Charles can beat Islam and Gaethe (no easy task) he has done more than Khabib ever did

[Sweater of AV]

The losses don't magically vanish because you lost early in your career. When there are other guys that didn't lose early in their career, then yes. That's something that will definitely come up when comparing two people's entire careers.

Those losses don't really mean anything. He was fighting the best in the world at 21. If we're going to be honest, there's a good argument that Khabib should have a loss as well. Context does matter. It's not just wins and losses. If Oliveira wins his next two then he's right in the discussion.

 

[Goosemen]

All it would mean is he's tied for Khabib in title defences.

His career with 8 losses will not be remembered anywhere near Khabib's regardless of what haters want to believe to help themselves sleep at night.

 

[Tweak896]

And I hate when people ignore the fact that khabib couldn’t buy a fight with a ranked opponent to save his life. He wasn’t “constructed”. He was ducked for a long time. Even Dana would talk about how hard it was to get anyone to take him on in when they pitched fights to the other 55ers. People forget that MMA is small world among fighters. He was a terribly kept secret. It wasn’t just his coach who knew he was destined for huge things

Exactly and you see the same situation with Islam and Khamzat. The UFC needs to do something to get the good fighters to the top of the rankings faster.

 

[Sweater of AV]

No winning is not enough. I will give a pass for Islam because Islam would give a lot of trouble to Khabib as well but they said Khabib was still winning more rounds than Islam was winning in sparrings.

Oliveira should finish Gaethje inside of 2 rounds without getting brain damage again and without getting dropped or hurt then you can compare him. And he needs to be P4P No.1 like Khabib then you can compare him by ignoring his near double digit losses.

Khabib doesn't have a loss that Tibau fight was just close with Khabib doing more damage to Tibau and controlling the octagon and Tibau more so he won. And Khabib also said he wasn't in his prime when he fought Prime Tibau in 2012. His prime is between 2015-2021.

The difference is Oliveira was getting dominated and losing when he wasn't in his prime while Khabib still managed to won his closest fight and still dominated others and didn't lose.

Olivieira has finished nearly everyone on this streak. Khabib was struggling to finish people.

Oliveira and Khabib have a common opponent in Poirier. Oliveira finished him faster. Who cares though, they both won in dominant fashion.

If Oliveira wins his next two then he's clearly in the discussion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

 

[Goosemen]

GSP never finished anyone is considered the GOAT

 

[Tevfik1907]

Olivieira has finished nearly everyone on this streak. Khabib was struggling to finish people.

Oliveira and Khabib have a common opponent in Poirier. Oliveira finished him faster. Who cares though, they both won in dominant fashion.

If Oliveira wins his next two then he's clearly in the discussion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

''Finished him faster'' lmao no is this how you see the fight? And dominant?

The most important aspects of the fight game:
- Did he lose a round?
- Did he get any damage?

Then you can look at finish time.

Khabib didn't lose a round to Poirier and he didn't get any damage.

Oliveira lost a round and got brain damage due to getting dropped by Poirier's punches.

Poirier knew he could win that Oliveira fight he just made a mistake. Betting odds were saying Poirier was favorite even.

Poirier got dominated and he knew he had no chance against Khabib. Poirier was just desperate against Khabib's level. That's the difference.

Khabib never lost a round in his life except Conor cheated to survive the first rounds and won the third in a close striking contest. And 2 judges gave the first round to Gaethje somehow which was BS.

Oliveira needs to finish Gaethje inside of 2 rounds and without taking Poirier and Chandler level damages. Khabib never took that level damages and never got dominated by his opponent like that.

 

[Sweater of AV]

''Finished him faster'' lmao no is this how you see the fight? And dominant?

The most important aspects of the fight game:
- Did he lose a round?
- Did he get any damage?

Then you can look at finish time.

Khabib didn't lose a round to Poirier and he didn't get any damage.

Oliveira lost a round and got brain damage due to getting dropped by Poirier.

Poirier knew he could win that fight he just made a mistake. Betting odds were saying Poirier was favorite even.

Poirier got dominated and he knew he had no chance against Khabib. That's the difference.

Khabib never lost a round except Conrat cheated to survive the first rounds and won the third in a close striking contest. And 2 judges gave the first round to Gaethje somehow which was BS.

Oliveira needs to finish Gaethje inside of 2 rounds and without taking Poirier and Chandler level damages. Khabib never took that level damages and never got dominated by his opponent like that.

I see the Khabib fangirls are having a meltdown.



Oliveira has a better finishing rate. Deal with it. If he wins his next two then he's in the discussion. Save your essays for your friends while you record each other yelling "smesh".

 

[jx820]

I appreciate the thoughtful examples. Why does Charles get anomalous or outsized credit for the last 4 years? Your approach awards longevity disproportionality to excellence/dominance.

Hall of Fames in Major Norther American sports leagues in act do the opposite. The typical arguement is it's not the "Hall of Very Good for Very Long" It's the "Hall of Fame".

I disagree. For an example in American sports leagues look no further than Michael Jordan. He was far from perfect. Jordan's Bulls came up short in the playoffs from '85 - '90. 6 consecutive seasons. He failed to make the playoffs 3 times. He lost over 350 games overall. But he carried 6 championships. All the losses, the rookie years getting his ass kicked no one remembers. There's no plaque about it anywhere, but tell any Jordan fan, any Bulls fan that Lebron is the GOAT, and you're are about to hear about Jordan's 6 rings, because that's what matters.

Hall of fame considerations in individual sports are also generally reserved for champions, and while we do make a big deal out of perfect records... it's worth noting that Jake Lamotta lost almost 1/5 of his fights and is well regarded as one of the all time greats and a first ballot hall of famer. Meanwhile Kash Farooq was a WBC champ who just retired 16-1, and no one but die hard boxing fans has really ever heard of him.

Long term we don't care about losses and stats nearly so much as we care about the 5-10 times an athlete is great.

 

[Mike]

Those losses don't really mean anything. He was fighting the best in the world at 21. If we're going to be honest, there's a good argument that Khabib should have a loss as well. Context does matter. It's not just wins and losses. If Oliveira wins his next two then he's right in the discussion.

It's incredibly odd to me that people itt are not making any distinction between being the best right now, and the best ever. Those aren't the same thing and aren't judged using the same criteria.

You can have any amount of losses and be the current best. If we're getting into who is the best ever, then yes. All losses are counted. This isn't unique to Oliveira. People bring up that gsp has two losses. They bring up that Anderson has three losses early in his career, and a bunch more past his prime. That Jones has a dq loss.

None of those things mean those guys can't be the best ever, but it's weighed in the discussion. As far as counting close decisions guys won as losses, that's getting super subjective to the point that it can get absurd. A lot of people, myself included, thought he lost that Tibau fight. But he won. It's however not debatable that Oliveira has been both knocked out and subbed.

 

[MartinGibson86]

I'm not unable to understand it. But the point in it is would Khabib lose to Felder by TKO or Lamas by choke? Same size, he'd smash those guys.

You can google the Jones/Reyes re-watching. BJM is on board.

Also Cub Swanson and almost died against Holloway

''Finished him faster'' lmao no is this how you see the fight? And dominant?

The most important aspects of the fight game:
- Did he lose a round?
- Did he get any damage?

Then you can look at finish time.

Khabib didn't lose a round to Poirier and he didn't get any damage.

Oliveira lost a round and got brain damage due to getting dropped by Poirier's punches.

Poirier knew he could win that Oliveira fight he just made a mistake. Betting odds were saying Poirier was favorite even.

Poirier got dominated and he knew he had no chance against Khabib. Poirier was just desperate against Khabib's level. That's the difference.

Khabib never lost a round in his life except Conor cheated to survive the first rounds and won the third in a close striking contest. And 2 judges gave the first round to Gaethje somehow which was BS.

Oliveira needs to finish Gaethje inside of 2 rounds and without taking Poirier and Chandler level damages. Khabib never took that level damages and never got dominated by his opponent like that.

Poirier just made a mistake huh?

Goddamn

 

[Sweater of AV]

It's incredibly odd to me that people itt are not making any distinction between being the best right now, and the best ever. Those aren't the same thing and aren't judged using the same criteria.

You can have any amount of losses and be the current best. If we're getting into who is the best ever, then yes. All losses are counted. This isn't unique to Oliveira. People bring up that gsp has two losses. They bring up that Anderson has three losses early in his career, and a bunch more past his prime. That Jones has a dq loss.

None of those things mean those guys can't be the best ever, but it's weighed in the discussion. As far as counting close decisions guys won as losses, that's getting super subjective to the point that it can get absurd. A lot of people, myself included, thought he lost that Tibau fight. But he won. It's however not debatable that Oliveira has been both knocked out and subbed.

If it were up to me, everyone would wait until careers are over to discuss these things. It's a silly discussion, but the question in the thread is who has done more assuming Oliveira wins.

I, along with many others, disagree with how much weight those losses have though. No one actually cares that Oliveira lost when he was 21. It's actually impressive he was already fighting the best in the world at that age. As people have mentioned there are many combat sports athletes who retire undefeated but are not considered close to the best ever. Context matters.

 

[OmegaRugal]

Oliveira surely wasn't facing a 0-0 fighter in his 14th fight
View attachment 910558

Those are some shitty records

 

[Bad Karate]

Well one has lost fights and the other never did, im not even sure we ever seen Khabib in trouble ffs.

 

[VitorReem]

So if he beats justin (who a few people including khabib already have) and the Walmart version of khabib he becomes better than khabib?

interesting

 

[do a moniker]

I see the Khabib fangirls are having a meltdown.



Oliveira has a better finishing rate. Deal with it. If he wins his next two then he's in the discussion. Save your essays for your friends while you record each other yelling "smesh".

Chuckie looked completely overmatched against chandler. Pulled it out with a great 1-2 minutes in round 2. If, and that’s a huge huge if, he wins the next 2, he may be in the discussion but still doesn’t have the dominance khabib does. There was a legit argument to suggest stopping his last 2 fights but he barely survived

 

[Sweater of AV]

Chuckie looked completely overmatched against chandler. Pulled it out with a great 1-2 minutes in round 2. If, and that’s a huge huge if, he wins the next 2, he may be in the discussion but still doesn’t have the dominance khabib does. There was a legit argument to suggest stopping his last 2 fights but he barely survived

Not really. There wasn't a legit argument to stopping either fight. Sure he got hurt against Chandler but no one was saying the fight should have been stopped.

Khabib lost the first round to Justin according to two judges and he admitted the guillotine almost had him against Poirier. Who cares, they both ended up winning.

And yes, I agree it's a big if, but that's the premise of the thread. If he beats Justin and Islam...

 

[KantoTerror]

na, khabib is a cut above the rest...khabib would've mauled Charles....

 

[cauti0n]

if he has 4 title defenses be is the LW goat. Doesn't matter if he has losses or not when nobody can make it past 3 in that division.

 

[Goosemen]

This is dumb.

 

[Goosemen]

If Sam Alvey beat Khamzat, Israel, Glover and Nghannou, and erased all the losses from his record,

he'd be the GOAT