If Charles can beat Islam and Gaethe (no easy task) he has done more than Khabib ever did

MCS said:
There were, what, 18 judges re-watching the fight and ALL scored it for Reyes? While I re-watched Khabib/Tibau just to see if it was a hobbery, and it wasn't. Close, 2-1. Khabib via activity.
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Who were these 18 make believe judges that all scored it for Reyes? It was close 48-47 either way. Personally I had Reyes but I also thought Tibau won.

Are you really unable to understand the subjectivity in this?
 
fortheo said:
It must indeed rank very highly for you since it's essentially the only thing Khabib has going for him in these types of convos.
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But it can be the only thing and that's enough. Right? A boxer can win a fight with just his jab. And there's the Bruce Lee quote, "I fear no man practicing many techniques 5000 times, but the one who practices only one 5000 times".
 
MCS said:
But it can be the only thing and that's enough. Right? A boxer can win a fight with just his jab. And there's the Bruce Lee quote, "I fear no man practicing many techniques 5000 times, but the one who practices only one 5000 times".
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We've already acknowledged that other factors are at play. If the vast majority go with charles, then no, Khabib's dominant unbeaten streak isn't enough for me.

Agree to disagree I suppose
 
Sweater of AV said:
Who were these 18 make believe judges that all scored it for Reyes? It was close 48-47 either way. Personally I had Reyes but I also thought Tibau won.

Are you really unable to understand the subjectivity in this?
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I'm not unable to understand it. But the point in it is would Khabib lose to Felder by TKO or Lamas by choke? Same size, he'd smash those guys.

You can google the Jones/Reyes re-watching. BJM is on board.
 
fortheo said:
We've already acknowledged that other factors are at play. If the vast majority go with charles, then no, Khabib's dominant unbeaten streak isn't enough for me.

Agree to disagree I suppose
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Yes.
 
MCS said:
I'm not unable to understand it. But the point in it is would Khabib lose to Felder by TKO or Lamas by choke? Same size, he'd smash those guys.

You can google the Jones/Reyes re-watching. BJM is on board.
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Who knows, he never fought them. Would Charles lose to Gleison Tibau right now? It's a stupid question.
 
fortheo said:
So, like I said, khabib fans think his dominance is the holy grail of all contributing factors involved. Not everyone agrees.
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Like I said, I'm not even a fan of the guy. These are pretty standard criteria applied to any fighter, across all combat sports. Losses matter. There's a reason all the top goat candidates have no losses, very few losses, or at the least few losses in their prime.
 
BJ Penn. Because he licked the blood of his gloves and threw the mic. And because he often made his oponents look like extras in a horror flick. And because he was a turtle.
 
MCS said:
We both know Khabib would win. Silliness.
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I don't just award people wins because I think they will win. That's actual silliness. The only information is what's happened, which is moulded by each person's perceptions and subjectivity.
 
Mike said:
Like I said, I'm not even a fan of the guy. These are pretty standard criteria applied to any fighter, across all combat sports. Losses matter. There's a reason all the top goat candidates have no losses, very few losses, or at the least few losses in their prime.
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And how many losses has Oliveira had at LW in his prime? You do realize he was 21 when he took those early two losses right? And they were against some of the best in the world.

This current streak essentially started when he was in his late 20's.
 
Garnet_StrongerThanYou said:
Khabib has no losses because he didn’t fight many good people until he got the title.

And he arguably lost to Tibau.
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Just like Islam, nobody wanted to fight him. There weren’t a lot of guys calling him out except Tony, and we all know what happened there. In his championship fights he looked as dominant as ever, and arguably beat a less washed up version of Gaethje that wasn’t exposed as someone with crap grappling.

BUT Oliveira’s resume is impressive for sure and I can understand anyone rooting for him.
 
Mike said:
Again, not even a khabib fan at all. Being undefeated over an entire career is a huge deal. Oliveira has been on top for a relatively short period of time and his career is riddled with losses. Finishing fights is all well and good, but when you have multiple losses you have to do more than have a similar resume to surpass a guy with zero losses.

Very, very few guys in the history of combat sports retire undefeated.
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Sven Ottks, Joe Calzaghe, Ande Ward, and Rocky Marciano all ubdefeated---none GOAT candidates.

If a baseball player entered MLB as a PROSPECT and retired having played more games in the munorz, he'd be a flash in the pan...not a GOAT candidate
 
Cowboy Kurt Angle said:
Imo maybe not pass Khabib but if he does beat Islam and Justin I will place him as second lightweight goat knocking off Bj Penn
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Really weird that people rate BJ above Frankie at LW

BJ failed in his first 2 cracks at the title, Frankie has better pre-title wins, and Frankie's 2-0 against him. Frankie also beat a 3x defending champ for the belt.

I guess its the 3 defenses to 2 and a draw.
 
I appreciate the thoughtful examples. Why does Charles get anomalous or outsized credit for the last 4 years? Your approach awards longevity disproportionality to excellence/dominance.

Hall of Fames in Major Norther American sports leagues in fact do the opposite. The typical arguement is it's not the "Hall of Very Good for Very Long" It's the "Hall of Fame". Excellence and Dominance matters even if only in finite bursts.

And, you could argue, 13 fights over 10 years is more than finite.

jx820 said:
Absolutely.

Those are not meaningful statistics. They're filler talking points. It's a descrition of how he won, not what he won or against whom. A dominant win and a come-from-behind win each add exactly 1 win to a fighters resume. It's absolutely something cool, and something to be proud of. It adds to the story of someone's legacy, but it doesn't give them any more big wins.

Prefontaine sprinting his last quater mile at Oslo in 55 seconds was a really cool stat that people still remember, but he also got the silver.

Gable winning the '72 Olympics without giving up a point was remarkable, but he still just got the one gold for it. There isn't a special "didn't give up a point" bonus.
Click to expand...
 
Sweater of AV said:
And how many losses has Oliveira had at LW in his prime? You do realize he was 21 when he took those early two losses right? And they were against some of the best in the world.

This current streak essentially started when he was in his late 20's.
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The losses don't magically vanish because you lost early in your career. When there are other guys that didn't lose early in their career, then yes. That's something that will definitely come up when comparing two people's entire careers.
 
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