If Charles can beat Islam and Gaethe (no easy task) he has done more than Khabib ever did

[Marko Polo]

Yes, but that isn't contradicting what he said. If you believe he did fight good people before the title then I can see having an issue. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the problem is.

Listen bud this isn’t a fucking court of law. I’m here to share my opinions and have a discussion with like minded fans. I’m not here to make my posts water tight to scrutiny and I don’t care how I’m perceived by strangers online.

 

[MCS]

Charles may not dominate, but he has a higher finish rate (90%) than khabib (65%). Finishing your opponents is certainly more impressive than decisioning them, no?

1. Dominant win streak
2. Finishing rate

Otherwise you can lose every other fight and be known as a great finisher. While the other can't be beaten.

 

[Sweater of AV]

Listen bud this isn’t a fucking court of law. I’m here to share my opinions and have a discussion with like minded fans. I’m not here to make my posts water tight to scrutiny and I don’t care how I’m perceived by strangers online.

Lol, you're able to do all of those things bud. I just pointed out you're not actually disagreeing with that person.

 

[jx820]

In your mind that would exceed never getting bloodied, cut, or knocked down and only losing 2 rounds in 13 UFC fights?

Absolutely.

Those are not meaningful statistics. They're filler talking points. It's a descrition of how he won, not what he won or against whom. A dominant win and a come-from-behind win each add exactly 1 win to a fighters resume. It's absolutely something cool, and something to be proud of. It adds to the story of someone's legacy, but it doesn't give them any more big wins.

Prefontaine sprinting his last quater mile at Oslo in 55 seconds was a really cool stat that people still remember, but he also got the silver.

Gable winning the '72 Olympics without giving up a point was remarkable, but he still just got the one gold for it. There isn't a special "didn't give up a point" bonus.

 

[Mike]

Again, context. Those two losses from over a decade ago were against some of the best fighters in the world at the time. Oliveira is a completely different fighter. If you want to get into details then you have to also take things like the Tibau fight into consideration. Additionally, Oliveira would have fought all of the best during his reign whereas Khabib didn't fight his main rival (Tony) and had to pull out of fights for various reasons including missing weight.

If Oliveira managed to beat Islam and Justin then there's pretty clearly a discussion. I know people have their favorites but that doesn't mean other fighters can be ignored.

He won that Tibau fight. Even if I don't personally agree with it, those were the scorecards. Again I'm not saying Oliveira didn't improve. He clearly did, but that improvement doesn't magically erase losses when talking about his overall career.

I'm not a khabib fan so favoritism doesn't come into play at all here. You just don't rank a fighter with multiple losses over an undefeated fighter unless he has far more wins and better strength of schedule. That's how this has always worked. Being undefeated is a huge point in khabibs favor.

 

[Mike]

Not if the guy with more losses has fought more often, fought more high level guys, has more wins, and also has a significantly higher finish percentage than the guy who never lost.

It seems to be the khabib fans that aren't taking everything into consideration, and instead they focus on his "dominance" while belittling several other factors.

Again, not even a khabib fan at all. Being undefeated over an entire career is a huge deal. Oliveira has been on top for a relatively short period of time and his career is riddled with losses. Finishing fights is all well and good, but when you have multiple losses you have to do more than have a similar resume to surpass a guy with zero losses.

Very, very few guys in the history of combat sports retire undefeated.

 

[Sweater of AV]

He won that Tibau fight. Even if I don't personally agree with it, those were the scorecards. Again I'm not saying Oliveira didn't improve. He clearly did, but that improvement doesn't magically erase losses when talking about his overall career.

I'm not a khabib fan so favoritism doesn't come into play at all here. You just don't rank a fighter with multiple losses over an undefeated fighter unless he has far more wins and better strength of schedule. That's how this has always worked. Being undefeated is a huge point in khabibs favor.

Well we brought up context so it's not just about scorecards. Frankly, there are a lot of factors that come into play including strength of schedule (who were they fighting in the early part of their careers), finishing rate, dominance etc.

It's not as simple as one guy never lost. I'm not a particularly big fan of either guy but I don't see how anyone can just say there's no discussion to be had if Oliveria beats Justin and Islam. His streak would be just as impressive as Khabib's, if not more.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Very, very few guys in the history of combat sports retire undefeated.

There are only 3 other people in the entire history of the sport to go 29 - 0 from the start of their careers, amd those other 3 never had to fight in a premier promotion even one time.

What Khabin did is unprecedented.

 

[Mike]

Well we brought up context so it's not just about scorecards. Frankly, there are a lot of factors that come into play including strength of schedule (who were they fighting in the early part of their careers), finishing rate, dominance etc.

It's not as simple as one guy never lost. I'm not a particularly big fan of either guy but I don't see how anyone can just say there's no discussion to be had if Oliveria beats Justin and Islam. His streak would be just as impressive as Khabib's, if not more.

Context would also include Oliveira being brutally finished in some of his losses, and getting battered prior to victory in some of his wins. And khabib only having one close decision over his entire career, which he won.

I think factoring in how the fights played out favors khabib more than Charles. More dominant, never in significant trouble much less finished multiple times, and having to go through significant adversity to win.

I don't see how anyone can say Oliveira just needs to have one or two more big wins than khabib, and that alone compensates for being a mid tier guy for much of his career and having multiple losses. Losses where he was subbed or knocked out, not close decisions that could've went either way.

 

[Mike]

There are only 3 other people in the entire history of the sport to go 29 - 0 from the start of their careers, amd those other 3 never had to fight in a premier promotion even one time.

What Khabin did is unprecedented.

He retired a little early for my liking, but going undefeated over an entire career is extremely rare. Feel like I'm in bizarro world arguing with people that it's somehow not significant. His being undefeated is what makes him the lw goat.

Lots and lots of guys have great wins at the weight class, but nobody else did it without losing or even being significantly damaged in a fight.

 

[Sweater of AV]

Context would also include Oliveira being brutally finished in some of his losses, and getting battered prior to victory in some of his wins. And khabib only having one close decision over his entire career, which he won.

I think factoring in how the fights played out favors khabib more than Charles. More dominant, never in significant trouble much less finished multiple times, and having to go through significant adversity to win.

I don't see how anyone can say Oliveira just needs to have one or two more big wins than khabib, and that alone compensates for being a mid tier guy for much of his career and having multiple losses. Losses where he was subbed or knocked out, not close decisions that could've went either way.

And he finished all of his fights whereas Khabib went to decisions with people perceived to be much weaker. Finishes matter as well.

Regarding the losses, strength of schedule matters. I don't particularly care about things from 12 years ago that have no real bearing on anything, but ask yourself who was Oliveira fighting and who was Khabib fighting.

 

[fortheo]

1. Dominant win streak
2. Finishing rate

Otherwise you can lose every other fight and be known as a great finisher. While the other can't be beaten.

Charles clearly didn't lose every other fight, so that's kind of moot. Like I said, khabib fans value his dominance more than all other factors at play.

 

[MCS]

Charles clearly didn't lose every other fight, so that's kind of moot. Like I said, khabib fans value his dominance more than all other factors at play.

Because it's the most important. Same goes for Fedor, Jones and GSP.

 

[fortheo]

Again, not even a khabib fan at all. Being undefeated over an entire career is a huge deal. Oliveira has been on top for a relatively short period of time and his career is riddled with losses. Finishing fights is all well and good, but when you have multiple losses you have to do more than have a similar resume to surpass a guy with zero losses.

Very, very few guys in the history of combat sports retire undefeated.

So, like I said, khabib fans think his dominance is the holy grail of all contributing factors involved. Not everyone agrees.

 

[fortheo]

Because it's the most important. Same goes for Fedor, Jones and GSP.

Not everyone agrees, clearly.

 

[MCS]

Not everyone agrees, clearly.

They don't have to agree. There are many factors to put importance to. I'd rank Khabib as the all-time best if he had beat Jones' title win record. Of course without losing, or with just 1, as Jones basically has the Reyes loss only. The unbeatable nature ranks high.

 

[Cowboy Kurt Angle]

Imo maybe not pass Khabib but if he does beat Islam and Justin I will place him as second lightweight goat knocking off Bj Penn

 

[Sweater of AV]

They don't have to agree. There are many factors to put importance to. I'd rank Khabib as the all-time best if he had beat Jones' title win record. Of course without losing, or with just 1, as Jones basically has the Reyes loss only. The unbeatable nature ranks high.

So let me get this straight. Jones lost to Reyes but Khabib beat Tibau.

<{chips}>

 

[fortheo]

They don't have to agree. There are many factors to put importance to. I'd rank Khabib as the all-time best if he had beat Jones' title win record. Of course without losing, or with just 1, as Jones basically has the Reyes loss only. The unbeatable nature ranks high.

It must indeed rank very highly for you since it's essentially the only thing Khabib has going for him in these types of convos.

 

[MCS]

So let me get this straight. Jones lost to Reyes but Khabib beat Tibau.

<{chips}>

There were, what, 18 judges re-watching the fight and ALL scored it for Reyes? While I re-watched Khabib/Tibau just to see if it was a hobbery, and it wasn't. Close, 2-1. Khabib via activity.