I stopped watching Usyk-Fury 2 after the 8th round, Usyk was so ahead...

[mozfonky]

6'4-6'5 255lbs, 82in reach.
Just massive in width like a bear.

Id favor the 6'5+ height. He looks bigger than 6'4

ya, and he was muscular too. only 56 when he died of a heart attack I'm reading.

 

[Mujeriego]

ya, and he was muscular too. only 56 when he died of a heart attack I'm reading.

Had to be a gland issue.
Just the face alone.
Fury looks like a guy whos just big.
Simon had something going on.

 

[mozfonky]

Had to be a gland issue.
Just the face alone.
Fury looks like a guy whos just big.
Simon had something going on.

I think he mentioned it in that article, i read it a few years ago.
Can't find a linkable version but it's on this facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/p/Abe-Simon-100064481658607/

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I guess it's easy to overlook but Holyfield was coming on strong, hard and fast at the end of the 80's, in fact, he was in line to fight tyson had tyson not lost against douglas, which would have been in the very early nineties. don't know who woulda won that one, Tyson wasn't as declined as he would be after prison and was looking pretty good in the preprison-post-douglas fights.

It is easy to overlook but I was around and so were you. We remember Holyfield being a factor at heavyweight even though he was a late addition to close out the 80s. He moved up to heavyweight in 1988 and became a top contender that same year. By early 1989 he was the top contender. The only reason he didn't hold a single heavyweight title back then is because Mike already had all 3 of them as the undisputed champion.

 

[mozfonky]

It is easy to overlook but I was around and so were you. We remember Holyfield being a factor at heavyweight even though he was a late addition to close out the 80s. He moved up to heavyweight in 1988 and became a top contender that same year. By early 1989 he was the top contender. The only reason he didn't hold a single heavyweight title back then is because Mike already had all 3 of them as the undisputed champion.

Well, everyone was skeptical if you can recall, especially with a phenom like tyson on top of the division. No matter who Holyfield dominated, not many thought he'd be a serious contender. also, you remember that the sport was super skeptical of the weights and the training, they called him a roboboxer or something like that and Holyfield did the most to change the notion that weights were bad for boxers than any other fighter, although, some folks still think weights are bad. And even though Spinks was working with weights to go to HW before him. I don't think anyone really thought spinks' physique transformed all that much, I always thought Spinks just gained a bit of fat, we all know that the sports scientists say that at best human beings can only put on about 8 pounds of muscle a year and here we had Mackie Shilstone claiming he added 25 pounds of muscle to Spinks' physique. With Evander, we knew what he was doing at some point and it wasn't just the weights.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Well, everyone was skeptical if you can recall, especially with a phenom like tyson on top of the division. No matter who Holyfield dominated, not many thought he'd be a serious contender. also, you remember that the sport was super skeptical of the weights and the training, they called him a roboboxer or something like that and Holyfield did the most to change the notion that weights were bad for boxers than any other fighter, although, some folks still think weights are bad. And even though Spinks was working with weights to go to HW before him. I don't think anyone really thought spinks' physique transformed all that much, I always thought Spinks just gained a bit of fat, we all know that the sports scientists say that at best human beings can only put on about 8 pounds of muscle a year and here we had Mackie Shilstone claiming he added 25 pounds of muscle to Spinks' physique. With Evander, we knew what he was doing at some point and it wasn't just the weights.

I remember the skepticism. To be fair though Mike was just that dominant. Back then he was Ring Magazine's P4P #1 rated fighter despite being a heavyweight. That was the same year (1989) Holyfield was the top contender to his throne. We've only had one other Ring Magazine P4P #1 rated heavyweight since and that's Usyk in the present (a former cruiserweight though, Mike was always a heavyweight which made his ranking much more special).

As far as weight training for boxers, I'm not a fan. I've had this conversation before on here. There are too many injuries with free weights, especially when heavy lifting is involved. Resistance training is much safer. It's not like the Bowflex wasn't around back then. It came along in the mid 80s.

 

[mozfonky]

I remember the skepticism. To be fair though Mike was just that dominant. Back then he was Ring Magazine's P4P #1 rated fighter despite being a heavyweight. That was the same year (1989) Holyfield was the top contender to his throne. We've only had one other Ring Magazine P4P #1 rated heavyweight since and that's Usyk in the present (a former cruiserweight though, Mike was always a heavyweight which made his ranking much more special).

As far as weight training for boxers, I'm not a fan. I've had this conversation before on here. There are too many injuries with free weights, especially when heavy lifting is involved. Resistance training is much safer. It's not like the Bowflex wasn't around back then. It came along in the mid 80s.

I use weights, but I was never very strong,lifted much or got muscular from it, none at all. My best press was 200 or so, at this moment, I'd be doing well to do 185, nothing basically. I never thought it did the things other boxing people thought (make you slow, overmuscular) It's true that you can fuck yourself up lifting but that also is true of any sort of training. It's amazing that there are still people who actually think it hinders a fighter though. Truth be told, boxing isn't a strength sport and whatever punching power a guy has, I never believed weights could change it, always pointed to Evander and also other fighters like Pazienza who got muscular but couldn't punch in their new divisions, however, why can baseball players hit harder with roids and not boxers? Don't know.

Tyson was something, he still could have been something after one loss but after the rape sentence and then the holyfield losses, it was all gone for good.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I use weights, but I was never very strong,lifted much or got muscular from it, none at all. My best press was 200 or so, at this moment, I'd be doing well to do 185, nothing basically. I never thought it did the things other boxing people thought (make you slow, overmuscular) It's true that you can fuck yourself up lifting but that also is true of any sort of training. It's amazing that there are still people who actually think it hinders a fighter though. Truth be told, boxing isn't a strength sport and whatever punching power a guy has, I never believed weights could change it, always pointed to Evander and also other fighters like Pazienza who got muscular but couldn't punch in their new divisions, however, why can baseball players hit harder with roids and not boxers? Don't know.

Tyson was something, he still could have been something after one loss but after the rape sentence and then the holyfield losses, it was all gone for good.

I've used free weights most of my life. I just think there are much better options for fighters particularly boxers. Even those dinky resistance bands that chicks use can provide a lot of load resistance. Up to around 100 lbs or more. If you need a lot more then you get a machine like the Bowflex and you can load hundreds of pounds. Those use heavy duty cables.

Many of the hardest hitters we've seen in boxing are slenderly built, lanky & wiry. Then there are the more compact guys with thicker more robust builds. But, punchers are born and not made they say. For the most part that's true. You can still improve your punching power significantly through different types of training, using proper technique, and sharpening your timing but it won't make you the next Foreman.

 

[mozfonky]

I've used free weights most of my life. I just think there are much better options for fighters particularly boxers. Even those dinky resistance bands that chicks use can provide a lot of load resistance. Up to around 100 lbs or more. If you need a lot more then you get a machine like the Bowflex and you can load hundreds of pounds. Those use heavy duty cables.

Many of the hardest hitters we've seen in boxing are slenderly built, lanky & wiry. Then there are the more compact guys with thicker more robust builds. But, punchers are born and not made they say. For the most part that's true. You can still improve your punching power significantly through different types of training, using proper technique, and sharpening your timing but it won't make you the next Foreman.

How much any of that would help a boxer, I don't know but I would think it could help a boxer. You know, in those superstar sports events there are football players who'll military 300-400 pounds then they'll have a joe Frazier who'll barely get up 160. I think there was another boxer in that competition but if weights didn't help the physical aspect of athletics, I don't think any of them would do it. Boxing, for whatever reason was never like other sports. Joe Frazier would have bullied any football player in the ring also, I think that maybe strength would give diminishing returns after a point in boxing.

As far as punching, I've never seen much correlation between strength and punching power, some of the greatest punchers are physically not that strong,(Arguello,Hearns) and some of them are, all builds have punchers so no seeming relation there. And the difference between someone who can bench more, what does that mean in the ring? He can push you off maybe but thats not the objective. I asked a guy who I knew benched way more than me to get in a shoving match with me, he pushed me off fairly easily but it wasn't anything dramatic, I suppose in some situations that sort of strength is useful but I'll never really think Ali was stronger than some of the guys he outmuscled, I know he was strong but part of it was his will and know how and also his stamina. Wrestling with Big George sapped George and he wasn't very strong by the end of that fight.

It's 2025 though and I'm sure the euros use weight plenty.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

How much any of that would help a boxer, I don't know but I would think it could help a boxer. You know, in those superstar sports events there are football players who'll military 300-400 pounds then they'll have a joe Frazier who'll barely get up 160. I think there was another boxer in that competition but if weights didn't help the physical aspect of athletics, I don't think any of them would do it. Boxing, for whatever reason was never like other sports. Joe Frazier would have bullied any football player in the ring also, I think that maybe strength would give diminishing returns after a point in boxing.

As far as punching, I've never seen much correlation between strength and punching power, some of the greatest punchers are physically not that strong,(Arguello,Hearns) and some of them are, all builds have punchers so no seeming relation there. And the difference between someone who can bench more, what does that mean in the ring? He can push you off maybe but thats not the objective. I asked a guy who I knew benched way more than me to get in a shoving match with me, he pushed me off fairly easily but it wasn't anything dramatic, I suppose in some situations that sort of strength is useful but I'll never really think Ali was stronger than some of the guys he outmuscled, I know he was strong but part of it was his will and know how and also his stamina. Wrestling with Big George sapped George and he wasn't very strong by the end of that fight.

It's 2025 though and I'm sure the euros use weight plenty.

Yeah, that's what I've found. Benching means squat in boxing. Several of Ali's opponents may've been stronger overall but he was stronger than them in certain positions like the clinch. Probably had better technique and did lots of clinch work to improve that aspect of his game. If guys aren't used to grappling in the clinch their arms can tire pretty quickly. Fighters have to work on it in sparring which is what Ali likely did to get better in that area.

 

[mozfonky]

Yeah, that's what I've found. Benching means squat in boxing. Several of Ali's opponents may've been stronger overall but he was stronger than them in certain positions like the clinch. Probably had better technique and did lots of clinch work to improve that aspect of his game. If guys aren't used to grappling in the clinch their arms can tire pretty quickly. Fighters have to work on it in sparring which is what Ali likely did to get better in that area.

Fatigue alone takes all that strength away and Foreman was wore out from all the wrestling, his own stupid non-stop punching and of course the mental games of Ali. Endurance is way more important than the kind of strength George had in the sport.

I know extra strength can't hurt but I wonder how useful it is sometimes. I never got any good at grappling but the old coach I worked under would say skill was more important there too, I kinda found that hard to believe but maybe. Most of my street encounters involved some sort of grappling and there were definitely times when the guy I was fighting was way, way stronger and in my case, being as that was just shoplifters, they were just trying to get away most of the time but sometimes they did, especially when I first started and didn't really know how to go about stopping them.

 

[listrahtes]

Tyson wasn't as declined as he would be after prison and was looking pretty good in the preprison-post-douglas fights.

Maybe some day these myths are laid to rest. Tyson didnt loose to Buster in his prime because he had an off night but because his weak mental game was exposed the first time against a at last higher level quality opponent and the limits of his style. Holyfield showed vs Douglas how you fight at world class level. He would have destroyed him in 1989 just as he did later on as would have the elite of the 90s.

Holyfield was 4 years older at their match with MUCH more mileage on his body. Only reason Tyson lost is because he simply is the much inferior boxer to Holy and would have always been.

Tyson was a very promising talent not only because of his wins but because his style was so attractive for watching. He never was on the level his fans to this day gush about. Thats perfectly shown in who he fought after Holy when there were enough killers left. Ibeabuchi, Tua ...etc. There is a reason why he never faced them.

 

[treelo]

Holyfield would have fucking battered the late 80's Tyson IMO

i think Tyson is a great fighter, but some of his wins are against guys with a lot of issues, be it training, mental health, weight or drugs

 

[mozfonky]

Maybe some day these myths are laid to rest. Tyson didnt loose to Buster in his prime because he had an off night but because his weak mental game was exposed the first time against a at last higher level quality opponent and the limits of his style. Holyfield showed vs Douglas how you fight at world class level. He would have destroyed him in 1989 just as he did later on as would have the elite of the 90s.

Holyfield was 4 years older at their match with MUCH more mileage on his body. Only reason Tyson lost is because he simply is the much inferior boxer to Holy and would have always been.

Tyson was a very promising talent not only because of his wins but because his style was so attractive for watching. He never was on the level his fans to this day gush about. Thats perfectly shown in who he fought after Holy when there were enough killers left. Ibeabuchi, Tua ...etc. There is a reason why he never faced them.

he was done after holyfield, he was suspended and hounded and he never really could put together another serious run at the title. Most fighters really never come back from a brutal kayo like he suffered with Buster and then he had another with Holyfield. I think he could have pulled it off but his out of the ring issues and a lot of his in the ring bad habits just did him in. After prison, he did have a chance and the potential to pull off a great comeback, he really did. The problems, he had no one good around him, not morally and not to train him. Tyson fell into a lot of bad habits by then, not just the looking for the big punch to end a fight, which is one but also, all the little technical things he did wrong and he had no one around to point them out. He would pause right before he'd punch whereas when he was young, he'd just shoot out punches, that was a telegraph, he also would not step left with his left hook and holyfield would just reach out and push him off balance when he'd load the left hook, and as far as the right, Tyson would throw the big right and stay there at the end of the punch with his arm out. Holyfield studied all of that and beat him half to death taking advantage of those flaws.

What would the fight have been a few years earlier? I don't know but different, even the Tyson of the Ruddock fights would have given a better account of himself.

 

[mozfonky]

Holyfield would have fucking battered the late 80's Tyson IMO

i think Tyson is a great fighter, but some of his wins are against guys with a lot of issues, be it training, mental health, weight or drugs

Maybe he would have, Tyson was changing his style so much. I think any version of Tyson would have a real hard time with Holyfield but I don't think he gets a beating with every version. I could see some tough close decision losses.

 

[TheGreatA]

I think he mentioned it in that article, i read it a few years ago.
Can't find a linkable version but it's on this facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/p/Abe-Simon-100064481658607/

Abe likely had gigantism, as did Primo Carnera. He also claimed to have a condition that made him unable to feel pain, which is why his reactions were to slowed to punishment. Unfortunately we don't have tape of Simon's first fight with Joe Louis where he is said to have displayed legendary durability, lasting 13 rounds with zero defense whatsoever, he was pretty much done after that. We only have footage of the rematch where Simon just couldn't take it anymore.